Question:
Do you know what a ladder is?
You might not own a ladder but odds are pretty good you know someone who does or you've at least seen one on TV. The fact is, ladders are everywhere and they let people do something they couldn't do otherwise. Is it anyone's fault they're not naturally capable of reaching 12 feet high off the ground?
Sure there's probably a few exceptional people who can go their whole lives without a ladder, but even they will probably acknowledge ladders are useful.
There's all sorts of ladders.
There's ladders that are really tall, that can reach heights of two stories or more.
There's ladders made out of fiberglass, wood, and metal.
Some ladders have features that make them easier and safer to use. For instance a ladder may be made out of light weight material, or it may collapse for storage, or it may have ladder boots with non skid surfaces.
They're everywhere, and they're not exactly cheap but there's surely one in your budget. All you have to do is pay for it and it's yours.
Sometimes you don't want a big ladder. Sometimes a little step stool or step ladder is all you need.
Do ladders make some people nervous? Of course. Lots of people are afraid of high places, and some people are afraid of passing under one. However, these are just paranoias and myths playing on our minds. The truth is that ladders are actually safe as long as you use them properly.
I'm afraid of heights myself, very afraid as a matter of fact. But I've found the more I use a ladder the less scared I am.
So even if you don't have a step stool or ladder of any sort let's pretend you do. It's not that much of a stretch, right? Are you so fundamentally different from a person that would own such a thing?
Okay so you're a ladder owner now.
Now let's pretend everyone starts telling you one day that ladders should only be used by professional contractors who are licensed to do repairs. But you don't do repairs. You just need to reach the gutters so you can clean them. Or maybe you can't reach the top shelf. So you keep using your ladder anyway.
And people keep warning you. Wouldn't that get annoying? After all it doesn't make any sense to have that ladder and not use it.
Then one day there's a law passed that you can't own a ladder more than 12 feet tall. Odds are pretty good this law doesn't actually effect you, but what if you had a two or three story house? Some people do. Can you see how a maximum ladder length could be annoying for someone?
Then it comes out in the news that people are sneaking fiberglass ladders into ladder free areas because they're so light. They start a campaign to ban fiberglass ladders. But wait a minute, aren't most modern ladders made out of fiberglass? The more you think about it, the less sense this idea makes but it keeps going strong.
Then a law is passed that your ladder has to weigh at least 40 pounds, it can't fold or collapse, and it can't have certain safety features unless it was made before a certain date. Also, your ladder can't have more than 10 rungs unless you're a licensed contractor, then you can have as many as you want.
Then they ban any ladder costing less than $250, stating that such cheap ladders are only useful for cat burglars and vandals. But your ladder costs about $100 and you've never robbed or vandalized anyone.
Then they say you can only get ladders from licensed ladder sellers. You have to register your ladder with the police. You can only buy one ladder a month. Meanwhile, people who use ladders for illegal purposes just seem to get ladders from nowhere.
And to top it all off they start talking about banning step stools and step ladders because they're too small. No honest person could need a ladder that small, they say.
Are you confused? Flustered? A little angry? You should be. All you did was own a ladder.
Was all that nonsense necessary? Did it really accomplish anything?
Yes it accomplished one thing. It made it difficult to impossible for you to use a ladder and take care of a very simple thing effectively without going to jail.
And now you know how over sixty six million Americans who own firearms feel.
So here's the scene:
Alowe, Jor-EL and Jor-EL's five year old son are in a convenience store one day. Alowe doesn't know Jor-EL, but just happens to be in the same store at the same time.
Then all of a sudden, a man runs in with a ski mask over his face and a sawed off shotgun in hand. The masked man quickly reaches across the counter and demands that the clerk hand over all the cash while pointing the shotgun in the clerk's face. As the clerk is handing over the money, Alowe thinks, "Oh good, here's my chance to use my handgun." Alowe nervously pulls his weapon, points it in the direction of the robber and shoots. Unfortunately, Alowe missed by a few inches and shot my five year old son instead. At this time, the robber dashes out of the store, cash in hand, as my son lies DEAD on the floor.
End of scene
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When you talk about firearms, I'm assuming you're mostly referring to handguns.
Let's not mince words. The sole purpose of a handgun is to KILL another person. Period. For whatever reason that brought you to use it, that is what you want to accomplish. You're not going to use it solely for target practice. You're not going to use it to shoot rattlesnakes. If you are going to use it, the intent will be to kill another human being. Whether it was for protection, vigilance or crime, that will be the reason you fired your bullet at him/her.To kill. If you're not prepared for all the consequences of taking another life, let our trained law enforcement keep charge of those things.
It's actually pretty damn tough to kill another person with a handgun even in a calm situation. But since the situations that cause a person to draw that weapon will always be tense, a nervous hand certainly won't help your aim any. You'll probably end up shooting youself or an innocent bystander.
"Packing Heat" also tends to give some people a false sense of security. A woman with a handgun in her purse may feel that it's perfectly safe to get money from that dark ATM in the bad side of town. She figures that since she has a gun available, it won't matter if she's mugged. She'll just draw her gun, fire and she'll live happily ever after. Little does she realise that she may be courting disaster.
FACT:
In the scene above, the robber actually had the much more effective weapon for killing another person. If you are truly looking for a firearm as protection, a sawed off shot gun is by far the very best choice. It has such a wide spray of discharge that you only have to be in the general vicinity to take down an assailant. No need for perfect aim. Two things though, good luck walking around with one stuck in your coat and make sure you're prepared for the life altering consequences should you feel the need to use it. And those last 17 words are probably the most important ones in this post.
I own a handgun. A Colt Python to be specific. A police woman taught me to shoot it at a police firing range. Taught me about gun safty etc.
I think it's too bad ppl don't have to go through a class on gun safty b4 owning one. I really think that would be a good idea. Along with a more stringent background check to weed out the nut jobs.
When you talk about firearms, I'm assuming you're mostly referring to handguns.
Not necessarily. The ladder analogy applies to all firearms.
As to the rest of your post. I'll just ignore it, since it ignores the basic fact that you don't know me. :D
Time out. To your corner again, Jor-El. And while you're there please re-read my thread "Evolution". ALowe is expressing his opinion regarding gun control. Your response had tones of a personal attack and he responded to that attack with yet another. But you started it Jor-El. ALowe has a right to his opinion and it was stated without offending anyone.
The last two posts by the two of you were bound to end up in a battle. Try a mature discussion instead. And now I'm going to bump my thread. It seems to have been forgotten quite quickly.
Annie
I do not own a hand gun, never was important in my upbringing around Lake Erie. I have gone hunting before and have done target shoting. So coming from that angle....
I loved your ladder analogy but do believe there are far to many guns floating around out there. Does anyone know stats on other countries crime rates that ban hand guns? It seems to me that hand guns are the ones used in most crimes. Would having more controls on buying, owning, and using guns change are crime stats??
I believe fully in our rights in this country, but do you think our founding fathers ever saw the crime problem we have now happening. Would that have changed their opinon?
I would really like to know more facts on this subject. Why did Bush let the Brady bill end? Was that not a good thing? I thought it had to do with semi automatics, is this kind of gun really needed to hunt or defend yourself?
The way I recall the reason for the right to bear arms in the first place was to protect ourselfs from the redcoats. It seems this right does more harm then good theses days.
I am just asking some questions here, so please don't call me names like the left liberal I am. :D I'm really not that far left.
I'm staying out of this one....but I had a b-b gun once....a Daisy... :D
1 Attachment(s) Oh you're FUNNY Sally, a B-B gun & it being a Daisy yet LOL... You're giving your age away I think... How about a sling shot???? (Home made) with a small branch of a tree & a rubber band??? Tee Hee That goes back some Huh???
:D :D :D
have a good day all
richard
Helen,
Slingshot---hehee, I still have one. I can use it too!!!!!! :) It's an antique!
we used to make rubber shot guns.....out of slim cut inner tubes stretched over pieces of wood with another piece as a trigger
Ha Ha, Granny, you didn't have to use the word "antique".... Old would have been sufficient lol "Antique" seems "older" than "old". I'll accept my being "old" BUT "antique" no no......... lol
Oh Sally, you really brought back memories. Memories, Memories, remember that song??? Ha, we used to make those rubber shot guns & we also used to play "cowboys & indians". Tee Hee what fun....
Since we're back in Memory Lane; we use to make (let's see if I can explain it correctly) We'd take a 2 x 4 board & nail a roller skate under it in front & back & then nail a wooden orange crate on it & nail a 1 x 2 or so board on each side of it for handles and (gosh darn this CRS, can't remember what we called it) anyway, we used it as a skooter, & IF we were lucky enough to have a "beep beep" horn from a bicycle, we'd secure that on the top of the crate & go skating & Beep Beeping down the street... lol I can just visualize it as I'm typing this. I don't think the kids have much fun as we used to in those "good ole days". lol
LOL LOL LOL
Helen
Gosh darn, I want those days back!!!!!!
I loved your ladder analogy but do believe there are far to many guns floating around out there. Does anyone know stats on other countries crime rates that ban hand guns? It seems to me that hand guns are the ones used in most crimes. Would having more controls on buying, owning, and using guns change are crime stats??
I don't recall the exact source, but since the UK has virtually banned possession of handguns, and has most other firearms under strict control, their crime rate has risen, and it's been said that it's easier now to buy a fully automatic firearm (illegally naturally) than it was before.
And then of course, there's Austrailia, where they've implemented SWORD control!!! I guess banning guns wasn't good enough. ;)
Just a personal comment, I didn't think my response was a personal attack. I simply indicated that Jor-El doesn't really know me. Based on his "story" he doesn't. But that's just my opinion based on his story which has a few problems.
For me to miss the bad guy and hit a 5 year old, either the bad guy is real short, or his 5 year old is lying about his age and is really 15, so is larger, therefore more likely to be in my line of fire.
Besides which, one of the things I've learned in my 49 years, is always be aware of what is BEHIND my target.
If you read professor John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime" or professor Gary Kleck's book "Point Blank," you will see that more than a million people each year use a firearm to defend themselves, but in only 2 percent of the cases is the gun actually fired. Law-abiding civilians shoot more criminals than the police because they are at the scene of the crime when it starts.
These same law-abiding civilians miss far less than the police do. There are more innocent by-standers struck by police bullets than by bullets from the weapons of law-abiding civilians defending themselves or others. By state law, we HAVE to be more careful, and in most states, civilians cannot shoot a badguy who is running away, and no longer a threat. (There are a few exceptions to the previous.)
IThe way I recall the reason for the right to bear arms in the first place was to protect ourselfs from the redcoats. It seems this right does more harm then good theses days.
Not just the redcoats. The 2nd Amendment was put in place to protect us from enemies, both foreign and domestic, including our own government, should it get "too big for it's britches." Unfortunately, I think we missed that boat long ago.
Self-Defense is a basic human right. But without the proper tools, how are we to excersize that right?
It's not the "right" that's causing all the problems. It's people. The right exists for all of us. If we're going to ban something because it seems to cause a higher rate of death, why not ban cars? Why not ban buckets? More (young) children drown in buckets than are killed by firearm accidents.
If you can find an honest speaking crook, he'll tell you he prefers gun control as it almost guarantees he won't have to worry about his next victim defending him/herself.
FYI, the ladder story isn't mine. It's from a fellow gun enthusiast on another forum.
And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since they caused me to get fat. :D
I own a handgun. A Colt Python to be specific. A police woman taught me to shoot it at a police firing range. Taught me about gun safty etc.
I think it's too bad ppl don't have to go through a class on gun safty b4 owning one. I really think that would be a good idea. Along with a more stringent background check to weed out the nut jobs.
I used to be vehemientally against gun ownership. I thought it served no purpose. Then one night while I was home alone a strange man broke in and stuck his head in my room. I didn't get hurt, nothing was taken ( I screamed, chased him out with a knife, and called 911) but it shook me up so much I couldn't sleep for 2 months and slept with a borrowed gun in my room. So I understand the purpose of owning a gun; or what should be the purpose: self defense. However, with so many nutjobs running around and being that guns can kill so easily, quickly, I think we need to be understanding of the fact that restrictions are and should be made. And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue that more screening and training should be mandatory before one is allowed to purchase one. Our murder rate here in the US by guns is 8 times that of any other country on the planet; I am all for the right to bear arms but I think we should just reconcile ourselves to the fact that a lot of restrictions may be made. Call it paying your dues for the privilige of being trusted with one? Just my .02.
Jen
I used to be vehemientally against gun ownership. I thought it served no purpose. Then one night while I was home alone a strange man broke in and stuck his head in my room. I didn't get hurt, nothing was taken ( I screamed, chased him out with a knife, and called 911) but it shook me up so much I couldn't sleep for 2 months and slept with a borrowed gun in my room. So I understand the purpose of owning a gun; or what should be the purpose: self defense. However, with so many nutjobs running around and being that guns can kill so easily, quickly, I think we need to be understanding of the fact that restrictions are and should be made. And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue that more screening and training should be mandatory before one is allowed to purchase one. Our murder rate here in the US by guns is 8 times that of any other country on the planet; I am all for the right to bear arms but I think we should just reconcile ourselves to the fact that a lot of restrictions may be made. Call it paying your dues for the privilige of being trusted with one? Just my .02.
Jen
Actually, there are more than a few countries with higher murder rates than ours. Perhaps not all with firearms, but, MUCH higher than our total murder rate, with and without guns.
There are already so many gun laws on the books, it's beyond being funny. I know that former president Clinton liked to hype the numbers of gun sales that were stopped with the Brady law, and subsequent NICS setup that took effect. The problem is, FEW if any of those people were arrested. And they did commit a crime when they TRIED to purchase a gun. They should have been arrested, but were not.
The only problem is, owning a gun is a right, not a privilege. Although many places have turned it into one. (NYC comes to mind) How long before free speech becomes a privilege?
And if you think having the right to keep and bear arms has not had an effect on our enemies, many historians will tell you one of the reasons the Japanese didn't invade us early in the war was because of wide spread personal firearm possession. Which is not even on the scale it is today.
Sure, there are problems with having a right to bear arms. But a better man than me put it very succinctly over 200 years ago, when he said:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
By the way, I can kill a lot more people in less time with a car than I can with a gun. But maybe I just need more driving lessons...or more shooting lessons. ;)
And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat
i agree al but i hope know one get mad at me.
have a great arguement all.
richard
And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat
i agree al but i hope know one get mad at me.
have a great arguement all.
richard
Hey Rich, no arguements here, so far :D Just a polite "discussion"
And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat. :D
:cool: :D I think your on to something.
Thanks for the other information, my gal and I were just talking about our freedoms and rights the other night and if our FF would chance anything after 200 + years. I don't think so.
I'm pretty much moderate on most issues and try not to look at everything from a black or white perspective. You do have a great point regarding the Japanese and others so maybe the right to have arms does more good then bad.
my grandfather, John d. Kruse "jack", you can find him in the political graveyard now, was a state rep for many years. anyway, back then the state reps would meet for 2 weeks in the summer and then only as necessary throughout the year, probably similar to a city commissioner today.
Now, this "government" has made it a point to become a full time job. Half of the stuff they come up with is because they have to much time to worry about it. If people could keep things simple and quit trying to change everything all the time our state would be a much better place.
Believe it or not, I think a lot of Americans do the right thing most of the time and don't always need a government taking care of them. Also a lot of governing can be done locally. How about religion in schools. Hey, if the community is for it why not. If they're not then ban em.
Anyway, too much government, too much regulation. Let things be simple and things will work much better.
I hope this post (and I don't feel like I'm ATTACKING anyone) will be of benefit to those who are "on the fence" about handguns. For those who are unsure whether they are of any benefit to the wellfare of a civilized society. It is my own opposing viewpoint. You all have your opinions. I have mine. I happen to have strong views about certain things and this is one of them. I feel the need to state them because they may be of benefit to some. It is also quite impossible for me to state my views about something without letting my emotions show through. I tend to be a little bit more graphic than some with my wording. That's just the way I'm built. It's my nature. Deal with it. I do.
Don't worry - no one's going to die or lose a paycheck from reading my words.
Let's look at this handgun thing from a slightly different angle:
OK, so now you have your handgun sitting in that expensive leather shoulder holster and life is good. You've got protection and if anyone attempts to do you harm, you can just whip out that handgun and shoot the creep and the problem will be instantly solved.
Now what?
Do you really think your life hasn't dramatically changed no matter what happened? Notice that I didn't indicate whether you missed, wounded or killed the person. I didn't because no matter what happened, your life will change dramatically as soon as that bullet leaves the chamber of that gun.
Most of the time it will change for the worse.
Are you prepared to deal with that?
For instance, here are just a few examples of things that can happen:
- You missed and may have killed or wounded an innocent bystander.
- You missed and maybe the creep got away and has pressed charges
against you.
- You missed and was immediately arrested. It went on your record and
jailtime/a fine might have been required.
- Maybe you shot yourself in your neverous attempt.
- You missed and shot a police officer that was just about to help.
And I didn't even go into what can transpire if you KILLED or wounded someone. You can let your imagination play around with that a little on your own.
There's also the mental trauma that often follows shooting someone.
Once again, the big question about carrying a loaded weapon is: Are you prepared to deal with all of the consequences should the need arise to use it against someone?
That's my point.
After all, that's why you bought that gun in the first place, right? In the event that you have to "USE" it. You didn't get the handgun as a fashion accessory. (Well, some may have.)
Some may be in severe disagreement with some or all of my views. Some may be in agreement. Hey, that's life folks.
Remember, I'm not FORCING anyone to do anything. Just stating my views.
There, you see. No one died. No one is any poorer. No one lost a paycheck.
However, some may be looking at handguns a little differently at this point.
Good point Jorel. I believe in gun ownership, and I also believe that every man and woman needs to ask themselves that question.
Am I prepared to deal with the consequenses of making that life and death decision of pulling the trigger?
I truly believe in training/lessons when it comes to firearms. If you aren't mentally prepared to use that weapon, mistakes are bound to be made.
For me, I have already commited myself to the understanding that IF AND WHEN I ever draw my gun (I pray that never happens), that someone IS going to get shot. That gun is never gonna see the light of day, unless such a situation is warranted. No one can predict the future, or know exactly what they are gonna do in such a situation, but arming yourself with training and knowledge is just as important as having that weapon.
My view on this became clear when I created a family. The lives of my loved ones are greater than mine. So yes I can accept sitting in jail, if I am in the wrong, if their lives are preserved. It's not a pleasant thought of taking a life, right or wrong. I would be mad as hell at anyone that forced me to shoot them, but if I saved the life of a loved one, I wouldn't feel guilty. I would only feel guilty if something happened to them and I wasn't prepared to defend them.
When I am in a hurry to go somewhere, I often think how I don't have time, or it's a pain to unlock my gun and put it on, especially if I am wearing clothes that don't allow me to conceal it. When I have those thoughts, I then think how bad I would feel if I needed it and I neglected to carry it.
My last point is that criminals are always gonna have/use guns. ALWAYS. You are right that there are ALOT of guns out there. Too many to ever get rid of them. If there are laws to ban guns, then the law abiding people are gonna be the ones not carrying guns. The criminals don't care about laws, they are gonna have em. When gun bans are in place the crime statistics go up. Look at Washington, DC and New York. Homicides there are outrageous. It's got to be alot easier for muggers, rapists, etc. when they know that their victim isn't armed.
If I am ever the target of a crime, I hope they get my 9mm worth and not just my 2 cents.
Oh, geeezzzzzz, Scott, this is one of the reasons I dont' visit the Conversatinos thread often (and you think YOU can get yourself in trouble??LOL).....
BUT, I just had to make an exception when I read this one! Very good thread, Al, and I really like your ladder analogy. I had never seen that one before.
I don't think this entire issue is quite so "black and white" and you will probably find that everybody's opinions can widely differ on this subject. Like politics and regligion it is also a subject that can get folks totally crazy. I have been licensed to carry concealed weapons in two states for about 22 years now and enjoy target shooting. I have taken gun safety classes and a couple of tactical shooting courses. We keep guns in our house and yes, I carry one for the sole purpose of killing another human being. If I didn't think I could do it, I would sell all our guns tomorrow. Of course, I realize my own life would forever be changed if I ever did kill someone else, even while defending myself but (given the absolute right circumstance) I would find a way to live with it. I think the worst thing anyone can do is to have a gun and not know how or when to use it or more importantly IF they could use it. It ceases to be "protection" at that point.
Gun control is the one subject that can provoke a major argument between my husband and I. I am violently opposed to hunting and do not particularly LOVE the NRA. A few years ago, in fact, I let my membership lapse when I did not like a lot of the literature I began receiving. But, I soon discovered I could not belong to ANY gun club here if I did not have an NRA membership. So I got mine re-instated and am now a hypocrit, card-carrying NRA member again ;) Personally, I don't think I would shoot in a public place unless I was totally convinced I could get off a shot without doing more harm to myself or someone else. I would never shoot to protect property or money. I personally don't feel comfortabel with a semi-automatic so I opt to carry only revolvers (.38 and/or .357 S&W). I have several hand-made holster bags that I have had made from a company in Texas. They are good size and are designed so they have a compartment in the middle with a velcro holster. I remember when I splurged for the first one ($150.00 to $200.00 each!), my husband asked me how in the world I would ever get my gun out of it in time to DEFEND myself if I was being attacked. Imagine his embarrassment when I explained that I know I would only shoot someone if I was about to be killed or was being attacked. In that case I would simply stick my hand in the middle of my bag and pull the trigger, shooting through the leather bag! I would NEVER show my gun....if I was being killed I would simply shoot through the bag, knowing I could not miss as the person would have to be right on me ;) I would never use my gun to threaten or warn, only to kill. I would never, ever give anyone the opportunity to take it from me or use it against me.
Like I said, even among gun owners, opinions widely differ. Personally I was not opposed to the Brady Bill. I don't think anyone really NEEDS a fully automatic weapon for defense or hunting. I would be the first in line to buy a "smart gun" if it were made law. If I had kids in my house I probably would not keep guns. I think it's foolish to keep guns and ammo separate. Still, I defend someone's right to bear arms. I do wish, however, that everyone who kept and carried a gun was a responsible gun owner. I think the waiting period should be even longer than it is to allow for a good background check. I think the pistol permit fees should be increased to cover that cost. I would happily pay more. I've often thought that we have to get licensed and take a test for a driver's license, why not a gun?
And just to keep this entire "book" I have managed to write "P-related"....one of the reasons my P (pustular on both palms) started was from using my gun ;) The pustular I have on both palms actually came out from a dog leash I always used as well as the pressure points on my palms from shooting :)
Great thread, Al!
Nancy
Jor-el, Scott and Nancy...way to go guys. VERY interesting posts...and no fighting!!!! This is great!
I love reading everyones opinions.
You might not own a ladder but odds are pretty good you know someone who does or you've at least seen one on TV. The fact is, ladders are everywhere and they let people do something they couldn't do otherwise. Is it anyone's fault they're not naturally capable of reaching 12 feet high off the ground?
Sure there's probably a few exceptional people who can go their whole lives without a ladder, but even they will probably acknowledge ladders are useful.
There's all sorts of ladders.
There's ladders that are really tall, that can reach heights of two stories or more.
There's ladders made out of fiberglass, wood, and metal.
Some ladders have features that make them easier and safer to use. For instance a ladder may be made out of light weight material, or it may collapse for storage, or it may have ladder boots with non skid surfaces.
They're everywhere, and they're not exactly cheap but there's surely one in your budget. All you have to do is pay for it and it's yours.
Sometimes you don't want a big ladder. Sometimes a little step stool or step ladder is all you need.
Do ladders make some people nervous? Of course. Lots of people are afraid of high places, and some people are afraid of passing under one. However, these are just paranoias and myths playing on our minds. The truth is that ladders are actually safe as long as you use them properly.
I'm afraid of heights myself, very afraid as a matter of fact. But I've found the more I use a ladder the less scared I am.
So even if you don't have a step stool or ladder of any sort let's pretend you do. It's not that much of a stretch, right? Are you so fundamentally different from a person that would own such a thing?
Okay so you're a ladder owner now.
Now let's pretend everyone starts telling you one day that ladders should only be used by professional contractors who are licensed to do repairs. But you don't do repairs. You just need to reach the gutters so you can clean them. Or maybe you can't reach the top shelf. So you keep using your ladder anyway.
And people keep warning you. Wouldn't that get annoying? After all it doesn't make any sense to have that ladder and not use it.
Then one day there's a law passed that you can't own a ladder more than 12 feet tall. Odds are pretty good this law doesn't actually effect you, but what if you had a two or three story house? Some people do. Can you see how a maximum ladder length could be annoying for someone?
Then it comes out in the news that people are sneaking fiberglass ladders into ladder free areas because they're so light. They start a campaign to ban fiberglass ladders. But wait a minute, aren't most modern ladders made out of fiberglass? The more you think about it, the less sense this idea makes but it keeps going strong.
Then a law is passed that your ladder has to weigh at least 40 pounds, it can't fold or collapse, and it can't have certain safety features unless it was made before a certain date. Also, your ladder can't have more than 10 rungs unless you're a licensed contractor, then you can have as many as you want.
Then they ban any ladder costing less than $250, stating that such cheap ladders are only useful for cat burglars and vandals. But your ladder costs about $100 and you've never robbed or vandalized anyone.
Then they say you can only get ladders from licensed ladder sellers. You have to register your ladder with the police. You can only buy one ladder a month. Meanwhile, people who use ladders for illegal purposes just seem to get ladders from nowhere.
And to top it all off they start talking about banning step stools and step ladders because they're too small. No honest person could need a ladder that small, they say.
Are you confused? Flustered? A little angry? You should be. All you did was own a ladder.
Was all that nonsense necessary? Did it really accomplish anything?
Yes it accomplished one thing. It made it difficult to impossible for you to use a ladder and take care of a very simple thing effectively without going to jail.
And now you know how over sixty six million Americans who own firearms feel.
Answers:
So here's the scene:
Alowe, Jor-EL and Jor-EL's five year old son are in a convenience store one day. Alowe doesn't know Jor-EL, but just happens to be in the same store at the same time.
Then all of a sudden, a man runs in with a ski mask over his face and a sawed off shotgun in hand. The masked man quickly reaches across the counter and demands that the clerk hand over all the cash while pointing the shotgun in the clerk's face. As the clerk is handing over the money, Alowe thinks, "Oh good, here's my chance to use my handgun." Alowe nervously pulls his weapon, points it in the direction of the robber and shoots. Unfortunately, Alowe missed by a few inches and shot my five year old son instead. At this time, the robber dashes out of the store, cash in hand, as my son lies DEAD on the floor.
End of scene
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When you talk about firearms, I'm assuming you're mostly referring to handguns.
Let's not mince words. The sole purpose of a handgun is to KILL another person. Period. For whatever reason that brought you to use it, that is what you want to accomplish. You're not going to use it solely for target practice. You're not going to use it to shoot rattlesnakes. If you are going to use it, the intent will be to kill another human being. Whether it was for protection, vigilance or crime, that will be the reason you fired your bullet at him/her.To kill. If you're not prepared for all the consequences of taking another life, let our trained law enforcement keep charge of those things.
It's actually pretty damn tough to kill another person with a handgun even in a calm situation. But since the situations that cause a person to draw that weapon will always be tense, a nervous hand certainly won't help your aim any. You'll probably end up shooting youself or an innocent bystander.
"Packing Heat" also tends to give some people a false sense of security. A woman with a handgun in her purse may feel that it's perfectly safe to get money from that dark ATM in the bad side of town. She figures that since she has a gun available, it won't matter if she's mugged. She'll just draw her gun, fire and she'll live happily ever after. Little does she realise that she may be courting disaster.
FACT:
In the scene above, the robber actually had the much more effective weapon for killing another person. If you are truly looking for a firearm as protection, a sawed off shot gun is by far the very best choice. It has such a wide spray of discharge that you only have to be in the general vicinity to take down an assailant. No need for perfect aim. Two things though, good luck walking around with one stuck in your coat and make sure you're prepared for the life altering consequences should you feel the need to use it. And those last 17 words are probably the most important ones in this post.
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I own a handgun. A Colt Python to be specific. A police woman taught me to shoot it at a police firing range. Taught me about gun safty etc.
I think it's too bad ppl don't have to go through a class on gun safty b4 owning one. I really think that would be a good idea. Along with a more stringent background check to weed out the nut jobs.
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When you talk about firearms, I'm assuming you're mostly referring to handguns.
Not necessarily. The ladder analogy applies to all firearms.
As to the rest of your post. I'll just ignore it, since it ignores the basic fact that you don't know me. :D
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Time out. To your corner again, Jor-El. And while you're there please re-read my thread "Evolution". ALowe is expressing his opinion regarding gun control. Your response had tones of a personal attack and he responded to that attack with yet another. But you started it Jor-El. ALowe has a right to his opinion and it was stated without offending anyone.
The last two posts by the two of you were bound to end up in a battle. Try a mature discussion instead. And now I'm going to bump my thread. It seems to have been forgotten quite quickly.
Annie
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I do not own a hand gun, never was important in my upbringing around Lake Erie. I have gone hunting before and have done target shoting. So coming from that angle....
I loved your ladder analogy but do believe there are far to many guns floating around out there. Does anyone know stats on other countries crime rates that ban hand guns? It seems to me that hand guns are the ones used in most crimes. Would having more controls on buying, owning, and using guns change are crime stats??
I believe fully in our rights in this country, but do you think our founding fathers ever saw the crime problem we have now happening. Would that have changed their opinon?
I would really like to know more facts on this subject. Why did Bush let the Brady bill end? Was that not a good thing? I thought it had to do with semi automatics, is this kind of gun really needed to hunt or defend yourself?
The way I recall the reason for the right to bear arms in the first place was to protect ourselfs from the redcoats. It seems this right does more harm then good theses days.
I am just asking some questions here, so please don't call me names like the left liberal I am. :D I'm really not that far left.
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I'm staying out of this one....but I had a b-b gun once....a Daisy... :D
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1 Attachment(s) Oh you're FUNNY Sally, a B-B gun & it being a Daisy yet LOL... You're giving your age away I think... How about a sling shot???? (Home made) with a small branch of a tree & a rubber band??? Tee Hee That goes back some Huh???
:D :D :D
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have a good day all
richard
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Helen,
Slingshot---hehee, I still have one. I can use it too!!!!!! :) It's an antique!
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we used to make rubber shot guns.....out of slim cut inner tubes stretched over pieces of wood with another piece as a trigger
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Ha Ha, Granny, you didn't have to use the word "antique".... Old would have been sufficient lol "Antique" seems "older" than "old". I'll accept my being "old" BUT "antique" no no......... lol
Oh Sally, you really brought back memories. Memories, Memories, remember that song??? Ha, we used to make those rubber shot guns & we also used to play "cowboys & indians". Tee Hee what fun....
Since we're back in Memory Lane; we use to make (let's see if I can explain it correctly) We'd take a 2 x 4 board & nail a roller skate under it in front & back & then nail a wooden orange crate on it & nail a 1 x 2 or so board on each side of it for handles and (gosh darn this CRS, can't remember what we called it) anyway, we used it as a skooter, & IF we were lucky enough to have a "beep beep" horn from a bicycle, we'd secure that on the top of the crate & go skating & Beep Beeping down the street... lol I can just visualize it as I'm typing this. I don't think the kids have much fun as we used to in those "good ole days". lol
LOL LOL LOL
Helen
Gosh darn, I want those days back!!!!!!
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I loved your ladder analogy but do believe there are far to many guns floating around out there. Does anyone know stats on other countries crime rates that ban hand guns? It seems to me that hand guns are the ones used in most crimes. Would having more controls on buying, owning, and using guns change are crime stats??
I don't recall the exact source, but since the UK has virtually banned possession of handguns, and has most other firearms under strict control, their crime rate has risen, and it's been said that it's easier now to buy a fully automatic firearm (illegally naturally) than it was before.
And then of course, there's Austrailia, where they've implemented SWORD control!!! I guess banning guns wasn't good enough. ;)
Just a personal comment, I didn't think my response was a personal attack. I simply indicated that Jor-El doesn't really know me. Based on his "story" he doesn't. But that's just my opinion based on his story which has a few problems.
For me to miss the bad guy and hit a 5 year old, either the bad guy is real short, or his 5 year old is lying about his age and is really 15, so is larger, therefore more likely to be in my line of fire.
Besides which, one of the things I've learned in my 49 years, is always be aware of what is BEHIND my target.
If you read professor John Lott's book, "More Guns, Less Crime" or professor Gary Kleck's book "Point Blank," you will see that more than a million people each year use a firearm to defend themselves, but in only 2 percent of the cases is the gun actually fired. Law-abiding civilians shoot more criminals than the police because they are at the scene of the crime when it starts.
These same law-abiding civilians miss far less than the police do. There are more innocent by-standers struck by police bullets than by bullets from the weapons of law-abiding civilians defending themselves or others. By state law, we HAVE to be more careful, and in most states, civilians cannot shoot a badguy who is running away, and no longer a threat. (There are a few exceptions to the previous.)
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IThe way I recall the reason for the right to bear arms in the first place was to protect ourselfs from the redcoats. It seems this right does more harm then good theses days.
Not just the redcoats. The 2nd Amendment was put in place to protect us from enemies, both foreign and domestic, including our own government, should it get "too big for it's britches." Unfortunately, I think we missed that boat long ago.
Self-Defense is a basic human right. But without the proper tools, how are we to excersize that right?
It's not the "right" that's causing all the problems. It's people. The right exists for all of us. If we're going to ban something because it seems to cause a higher rate of death, why not ban cars? Why not ban buckets? More (young) children drown in buckets than are killed by firearm accidents.
If you can find an honest speaking crook, he'll tell you he prefers gun control as it almost guarantees he won't have to worry about his next victim defending him/herself.
FYI, the ladder story isn't mine. It's from a fellow gun enthusiast on another forum.
And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since they caused me to get fat. :D
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I own a handgun. A Colt Python to be specific. A police woman taught me to shoot it at a police firing range. Taught me about gun safty etc.
I think it's too bad ppl don't have to go through a class on gun safty b4 owning one. I really think that would be a good idea. Along with a more stringent background check to weed out the nut jobs.
I used to be vehemientally against gun ownership. I thought it served no purpose. Then one night while I was home alone a strange man broke in and stuck his head in my room. I didn't get hurt, nothing was taken ( I screamed, chased him out with a knife, and called 911) but it shook me up so much I couldn't sleep for 2 months and slept with a borrowed gun in my room. So I understand the purpose of owning a gun; or what should be the purpose: self defense. However, with so many nutjobs running around and being that guns can kill so easily, quickly, I think we need to be understanding of the fact that restrictions are and should be made. And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue that more screening and training should be mandatory before one is allowed to purchase one. Our murder rate here in the US by guns is 8 times that of any other country on the planet; I am all for the right to bear arms but I think we should just reconcile ourselves to the fact that a lot of restrictions may be made. Call it paying your dues for the privilige of being trusted with one? Just my .02.
Jen
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I used to be vehemientally against gun ownership. I thought it served no purpose. Then one night while I was home alone a strange man broke in and stuck his head in my room. I didn't get hurt, nothing was taken ( I screamed, chased him out with a knife, and called 911) but it shook me up so much I couldn't sleep for 2 months and slept with a borrowed gun in my room. So I understand the purpose of owning a gun; or what should be the purpose: self defense. However, with so many nutjobs running around and being that guns can kill so easily, quickly, I think we need to be understanding of the fact that restrictions are and should be made. And I wholeheartedly agree with Sue that more screening and training should be mandatory before one is allowed to purchase one. Our murder rate here in the US by guns is 8 times that of any other country on the planet; I am all for the right to bear arms but I think we should just reconcile ourselves to the fact that a lot of restrictions may be made. Call it paying your dues for the privilige of being trusted with one? Just my .02.
Jen
Actually, there are more than a few countries with higher murder rates than ours. Perhaps not all with firearms, but, MUCH higher than our total murder rate, with and without guns.
There are already so many gun laws on the books, it's beyond being funny. I know that former president Clinton liked to hype the numbers of gun sales that were stopped with the Brady law, and subsequent NICS setup that took effect. The problem is, FEW if any of those people were arrested. And they did commit a crime when they TRIED to purchase a gun. They should have been arrested, but were not.
The only problem is, owning a gun is a right, not a privilege. Although many places have turned it into one. (NYC comes to mind) How long before free speech becomes a privilege?
And if you think having the right to keep and bear arms has not had an effect on our enemies, many historians will tell you one of the reasons the Japanese didn't invade us early in the war was because of wide spread personal firearm possession. Which is not even on the scale it is today.
Sure, there are problems with having a right to bear arms. But a better man than me put it very succinctly over 200 years ago, when he said:
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
By the way, I can kill a lot more people in less time with a car than I can with a gun. But maybe I just need more driving lessons...or more shooting lessons. ;)
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And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat
i agree al but i hope know one get mad at me.
have a great arguement all.
richard
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And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat
i agree al but i hope know one get mad at me.
have a great arguement all.
richard
Hey Rich, no arguements here, so far :D Just a polite "discussion"
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And if guns cause crime, then mine are defective, and we should ban spoons since the caused me to get fat. :D
:cool: :D I think your on to something.
Thanks for the other information, my gal and I were just talking about our freedoms and rights the other night and if our FF would chance anything after 200 + years. I don't think so.
I'm pretty much moderate on most issues and try not to look at everything from a black or white perspective. You do have a great point regarding the Japanese and others so maybe the right to have arms does more good then bad.
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my grandfather, John d. Kruse "jack", you can find him in the political graveyard now, was a state rep for many years. anyway, back then the state reps would meet for 2 weeks in the summer and then only as necessary throughout the year, probably similar to a city commissioner today.
Now, this "government" has made it a point to become a full time job. Half of the stuff they come up with is because they have to much time to worry about it. If people could keep things simple and quit trying to change everything all the time our state would be a much better place.
Believe it or not, I think a lot of Americans do the right thing most of the time and don't always need a government taking care of them. Also a lot of governing can be done locally. How about religion in schools. Hey, if the community is for it why not. If they're not then ban em.
Anyway, too much government, too much regulation. Let things be simple and things will work much better.
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I hope this post (and I don't feel like I'm ATTACKING anyone) will be of benefit to those who are "on the fence" about handguns. For those who are unsure whether they are of any benefit to the wellfare of a civilized society. It is my own opposing viewpoint. You all have your opinions. I have mine. I happen to have strong views about certain things and this is one of them. I feel the need to state them because they may be of benefit to some. It is also quite impossible for me to state my views about something without letting my emotions show through. I tend to be a little bit more graphic than some with my wording. That's just the way I'm built. It's my nature. Deal with it. I do.
Don't worry - no one's going to die or lose a paycheck from reading my words.
Let's look at this handgun thing from a slightly different angle:
OK, so now you have your handgun sitting in that expensive leather shoulder holster and life is good. You've got protection and if anyone attempts to do you harm, you can just whip out that handgun and shoot the creep and the problem will be instantly solved.
Now what?
Do you really think your life hasn't dramatically changed no matter what happened? Notice that I didn't indicate whether you missed, wounded or killed the person. I didn't because no matter what happened, your life will change dramatically as soon as that bullet leaves the chamber of that gun.
Most of the time it will change for the worse.
Are you prepared to deal with that?
For instance, here are just a few examples of things that can happen:
- You missed and may have killed or wounded an innocent bystander.
- You missed and maybe the creep got away and has pressed charges
against you.
- You missed and was immediately arrested. It went on your record and
jailtime/a fine might have been required.
- Maybe you shot yourself in your neverous attempt.
- You missed and shot a police officer that was just about to help.
And I didn't even go into what can transpire if you KILLED or wounded someone. You can let your imagination play around with that a little on your own.
There's also the mental trauma that often follows shooting someone.
Once again, the big question about carrying a loaded weapon is: Are you prepared to deal with all of the consequences should the need arise to use it against someone?
That's my point.
After all, that's why you bought that gun in the first place, right? In the event that you have to "USE" it. You didn't get the handgun as a fashion accessory. (Well, some may have.)
Some may be in severe disagreement with some or all of my views. Some may be in agreement. Hey, that's life folks.
Remember, I'm not FORCING anyone to do anything. Just stating my views.
There, you see. No one died. No one is any poorer. No one lost a paycheck.
However, some may be looking at handguns a little differently at this point.
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Good point Jorel. I believe in gun ownership, and I also believe that every man and woman needs to ask themselves that question.
Am I prepared to deal with the consequenses of making that life and death decision of pulling the trigger?
I truly believe in training/lessons when it comes to firearms. If you aren't mentally prepared to use that weapon, mistakes are bound to be made.
For me, I have already commited myself to the understanding that IF AND WHEN I ever draw my gun (I pray that never happens), that someone IS going to get shot. That gun is never gonna see the light of day, unless such a situation is warranted. No one can predict the future, or know exactly what they are gonna do in such a situation, but arming yourself with training and knowledge is just as important as having that weapon.
My view on this became clear when I created a family. The lives of my loved ones are greater than mine. So yes I can accept sitting in jail, if I am in the wrong, if their lives are preserved. It's not a pleasant thought of taking a life, right or wrong. I would be mad as hell at anyone that forced me to shoot them, but if I saved the life of a loved one, I wouldn't feel guilty. I would only feel guilty if something happened to them and I wasn't prepared to defend them.
When I am in a hurry to go somewhere, I often think how I don't have time, or it's a pain to unlock my gun and put it on, especially if I am wearing clothes that don't allow me to conceal it. When I have those thoughts, I then think how bad I would feel if I needed it and I neglected to carry it.
My last point is that criminals are always gonna have/use guns. ALWAYS. You are right that there are ALOT of guns out there. Too many to ever get rid of them. If there are laws to ban guns, then the law abiding people are gonna be the ones not carrying guns. The criminals don't care about laws, they are gonna have em. When gun bans are in place the crime statistics go up. Look at Washington, DC and New York. Homicides there are outrageous. It's got to be alot easier for muggers, rapists, etc. when they know that their victim isn't armed.
If I am ever the target of a crime, I hope they get my 9mm worth and not just my 2 cents.
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Oh, geeezzzzzz, Scott, this is one of the reasons I dont' visit the Conversatinos thread often (and you think YOU can get yourself in trouble??LOL).....
BUT, I just had to make an exception when I read this one! Very good thread, Al, and I really like your ladder analogy. I had never seen that one before.
I don't think this entire issue is quite so "black and white" and you will probably find that everybody's opinions can widely differ on this subject. Like politics and regligion it is also a subject that can get folks totally crazy. I have been licensed to carry concealed weapons in two states for about 22 years now and enjoy target shooting. I have taken gun safety classes and a couple of tactical shooting courses. We keep guns in our house and yes, I carry one for the sole purpose of killing another human being. If I didn't think I could do it, I would sell all our guns tomorrow. Of course, I realize my own life would forever be changed if I ever did kill someone else, even while defending myself but (given the absolute right circumstance) I would find a way to live with it. I think the worst thing anyone can do is to have a gun and not know how or when to use it or more importantly IF they could use it. It ceases to be "protection" at that point.
Gun control is the one subject that can provoke a major argument between my husband and I. I am violently opposed to hunting and do not particularly LOVE the NRA. A few years ago, in fact, I let my membership lapse when I did not like a lot of the literature I began receiving. But, I soon discovered I could not belong to ANY gun club here if I did not have an NRA membership. So I got mine re-instated and am now a hypocrit, card-carrying NRA member again ;) Personally, I don't think I would shoot in a public place unless I was totally convinced I could get off a shot without doing more harm to myself or someone else. I would never shoot to protect property or money. I personally don't feel comfortabel with a semi-automatic so I opt to carry only revolvers (.38 and/or .357 S&W). I have several hand-made holster bags that I have had made from a company in Texas. They are good size and are designed so they have a compartment in the middle with a velcro holster. I remember when I splurged for the first one ($150.00 to $200.00 each!), my husband asked me how in the world I would ever get my gun out of it in time to DEFEND myself if I was being attacked. Imagine his embarrassment when I explained that I know I would only shoot someone if I was about to be killed or was being attacked. In that case I would simply stick my hand in the middle of my bag and pull the trigger, shooting through the leather bag! I would NEVER show my gun....if I was being killed I would simply shoot through the bag, knowing I could not miss as the person would have to be right on me ;) I would never use my gun to threaten or warn, only to kill. I would never, ever give anyone the opportunity to take it from me or use it against me.
Like I said, even among gun owners, opinions widely differ. Personally I was not opposed to the Brady Bill. I don't think anyone really NEEDS a fully automatic weapon for defense or hunting. I would be the first in line to buy a "smart gun" if it were made law. If I had kids in my house I probably would not keep guns. I think it's foolish to keep guns and ammo separate. Still, I defend someone's right to bear arms. I do wish, however, that everyone who kept and carried a gun was a responsible gun owner. I think the waiting period should be even longer than it is to allow for a good background check. I think the pistol permit fees should be increased to cover that cost. I would happily pay more. I've often thought that we have to get licensed and take a test for a driver's license, why not a gun?
And just to keep this entire "book" I have managed to write "P-related"....one of the reasons my P (pustular on both palms) started was from using my gun ;) The pustular I have on both palms actually came out from a dog leash I always used as well as the pressure points on my palms from shooting :)
Great thread, Al!
Nancy
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Jor-el, Scott and Nancy...way to go guys. VERY interesting posts...and no fighting!!!! This is great!
I love reading everyones opinions.
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