Question:
My Sony 725 DVD player shows how many layers a DVD has.But when I watched Panic Room,which shows up as having 2 layers,I couldn't see the layer change,even when going back over the spot the layer change was meant to be,after I'd watched the film.
If this is the case and it has 2 layers,then why and how did they do it and why can't all DVD's do this?
I can normally see the layer changes.
Couldn't spot the layer change myself when watching this on Friday night - watched it on my old (but trusty) Sony 525 :)
It was the R2 version if that makes any difference
Talking of layer changes, how come when I had my old Grundig 210a player, I never once 'saw' a layer change. Now got a Sony, and they are now noticable??
Originally posted by Midge
Talking of layer changes, how come when I had my old Grundig 210a player, I never once 'saw' a layer change. Now got a Sony, and they are now noticable??
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
I believe that the layer change occurs at a time when the panic room door closes and all is black for an instant.
However, even though I also watched it 3 days ago, I can't remember for sure. This seems to be a very cleverly and efficiently placed layer change indeed.
Wendelius
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
That's a bit of a sweeping statement isn't it?
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
dont agree with you there my grundig was good with layer changes but it wents tits up with most films and struggled to play anything, changed to a toshiba which plays everything but layer changes are crap
still prefer my toshiba though
Originally posted by Wendelius
I believe that the layer change occurs at a time when the panic room door closes and all is black for an instant.
However, even though I also watched it 3 days ago, I can't remember for sure. This seems to be a very cleverly and efficiently placed layer change indeed.
Wendelius
No it doesn't.That's what I'm saying.The scene continues seamlessly.
Didn't realise Panic Room 2 was out :p
You should see it, it's really good :| ;)
Originally posted by Bolch
Didn't realise Panic Room 2 was out :p
:lol:
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
No it doesn't.That's what I'm saying.The scene continues seamlessly.
Just watched it for a second time and there is indeed a layer change during a fade to black scene. But it's very cleverly placed and, IMO, faster than most layer changes on my player (or is that an impression because it's so well placed?). In any case I didn't notice it the first time but did on the second viewing, probably only because I was looking for it.
Wendelius
Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam
Well I didn't know that.
It's about time they used this seamless layer change on all discs then.
Do all players support this seamless layer change? I use an old Pioneer 626D and I am interested to know if it would make the layer change seamlessly on superbit titles.
Also I read that superbit titles don’t have macrovision protection is this true?
Well my Pioneer 636D is very speedy on the layer changes, so I assume yours would be as well. So I would say so, yes.
Adam Barratt.
Disney don't use the full DVD spec either,hence the name Disney DVD.
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
Grundig? :lol:
Originally posted by Bamse
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
Probably because they concentrate on picture/sound quality and on build quality with excellent drive mechanisms, rather than worrying over the layer change. Though it's more likely that, being one of the companies that are behind the DVD standard, they follow the standard very closely. This is why 100% of DVDs work on Sony players, unlike certain other cheapo brands I can think of ;). Non-standard features such as seamless layer changes (first I've heard of such a thing) may not be utilised, but still the player will play the DVD perfectly fine as it should do according to the spec.
P.S. As for why you might not notice the layer change, well it could just simply be in a sensible place. If the change is in the right place you should never notice it beyond possibly hear the drive mechanism shift slightly if you have your ear close to the machine. Many DVD manufacturers just don't care where they stick the change.
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Why the hell do the specifications make a dvd player dump its memory?! Thats so daft!:shocker:
I've heard of expensive dvd players that make all layer changes seamless by using a buffer (cant remember the make) but now that i know that all players have a buffer and could have seamless layer changes but the dvd spec purposely puts the pause in, i'm really annoyed!!!
Originally posted by sweetmate
Why the hell do the specifications make a dvd player dump its memory?! Thats so daft!:shocker:
I've heard of expensive dvd players that make all layer changes seamless by using a buffer (cant remember the make) but now that i know that all players have a buffer and could have seamless layer changes but the dvd spec purposely puts the pause in, i'm really annoyed!!!
Maybe it was thought that audio sync was difficult to maintain if they buffered and it's more reliable to just dump the buffer. By putting that in the spec they can be sure that all players following the spec aren't going to suffer this kind of problem. The spec doesn't purposely put the pause in, just that it doesn't try to eliminate it if it's there. The pause is down to the physical time it takes for the drive mechanism to re-seek.
No thats wrong, the Tosh 220 has seamless layer changes, I had one but returned it for a Sony 700 as although the Tosh had an amazing drive, the picture was none too great.
My Pioneer is very slow at layer changes, the slowest I've had.
My first player, a Sammy 709 (ahhhh bless it) had an amazingly fast change but I gave it to my then girlfriend and got a Sony 336.....the Sony had an ok layer change but as is common with many Sony DVD/CD transports, the laser packed up after 12 months rendering it a doorstop.
Then I got my current Pioneer 444 which has a slower change than the Sony but has slightly better edge definition and colour reproduction. I have two Superbit titles so I'll have to check them out......
As for the layer change in Panic Room...I wish it was about 2 hours long......**** film I thought :)
My only experience with a Toshiba SD220 showed clearly visible layer changes. There are players with nearly invisible layer changes available, thanks to their use of multi-speed ATAPI DVD-ROM drives. Apex, Panasonic, Denon and Meridian have used these drives with success. The high speed of these drives and their laser assemblies allows them to re-track and buffer much more rapidly than the single-speed drives used by the vast majority of set-top DVD players.
The use of non-seamless layer changes isn't a playback issue (although there is a possibility that some early players would be unable to negotiate a seamless change). It's an authoring issue. At the time of the DVD specification's creation, there were no authoring systems that allowed reliable, seamless layer changes. Even today many/most authoring systems do not allow for seamless layer changes.
This topic was discussed at AVS several months ago. It may be of interest to some: thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=120628&perpage=20) .
Wayne, as far as I know Disney's DVDs are within spec and the Disney DVD label is merely a marketing tool (although their discs are notorious for their compatibility issues).
Adam
ffs...please ignore
It's probably using a Reverse Spiral layer change too as this is much faster - practically instant.
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
I agree my NS900 could be better but for most DVD's I don't notice is at all. I have the new Hellraiser set and the layer change is awful and isn't placed very well on the DVD's. The NS900 takes a good second to get past the layer change. My new NS585 is much quicker on the same DVD's and I hardly notice it.
Sony make excellent players and I prefer them over most other makes. At least I won't have any problems with discs not working. I haven't had a disc fail yet in a Sony compared to other makes I have used such as Pioneer, Ebench, Samsung, Cyberhome and Toshiba.
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old? :eek: ;)
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old? :eek: ;)
Roy apparently...to write: "ffs...please ignore" :suspect:
:lol:
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old?
I didn't realise. :D
Anyway, the layer change is still a problem on many players after two years.
Probably because they concentrate on picture/sound quality and on build quality with excellent drive mechanisms...
Hmm, I wonder...
I've gone through 2 Sony DVD players in 3 years which have suffered C:13:00 laser failures... :oh-hum:
Back in the good old days, before I had a proper dvd player, I used to use a creative dxr2 PC DVDROM drive with TV out. This never once paused on a layer change. I always put the pause in proper players down to the fact that the drives in them just aren't as good as those found in PCs. I recently purchased a Pionee DV575 player, which I thought might not pause on changes, but still does, only momentarily, but still long enough for my marantz amp to lose signal and then try and work out what's going on. This causes a sound dropout for a second or so, so if a layer change is badly positioned such as during a scene, you lose dialog. Most annoying!
I also had a DXR 2 in my PC (still have it but don't use it). DVD ROM drives such as this have a buffer that makes the layer change seemless. Many cheap players also use DVD ROM drives which is you don't see the layer changes.
If this is the case and it has 2 layers,then why and how did they do it and why can't all DVD's do this?
I can normally see the layer changes.
Answers:
Couldn't spot the layer change myself when watching this on Friday night - watched it on my old (but trusty) Sony 525 :)
It was the R2 version if that makes any difference
Answers:
Talking of layer changes, how come when I had my old Grundig 210a player, I never once 'saw' a layer change. Now got a Sony, and they are now noticable??
Answers:
Originally posted by Midge
Talking of layer changes, how come when I had my old Grundig 210a player, I never once 'saw' a layer change. Now got a Sony, and they are now noticable??
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
Answers:
I believe that the layer change occurs at a time when the panic room door closes and all is black for an instant.
However, even though I also watched it 3 days ago, I can't remember for sure. This seems to be a very cleverly and efficiently placed layer change indeed.
Wendelius
Answers:
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
That's a bit of a sweeping statement isn't it?
Answers:
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
dont agree with you there my grundig was good with layer changes but it wents tits up with most films and struggled to play anything, changed to a toshiba which plays everything but layer changes are crap
still prefer my toshiba though
Answers:
Originally posted by Wendelius
I believe that the layer change occurs at a time when the panic room door closes and all is black for an instant.
However, even though I also watched it 3 days ago, I can't remember for sure. This seems to be a very cleverly and efficiently placed layer change indeed.
Wendelius
No it doesn't.That's what I'm saying.The scene continues seamlessly.
Answers:
Didn't realise Panic Room 2 was out :p
Answers:
You should see it, it's really good :| ;)
Answers:
Originally posted by Bolch
Didn't realise Panic Room 2 was out :p
:lol:
Answers:
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
No it doesn't.That's what I'm saying.The scene continues seamlessly.
Just watched it for a second time and there is indeed a layer change during a fade to black scene. But it's very cleverly placed and, IMO, faster than most layer changes on my player (or is that an impression because it's so well placed?). In any case I didn't notice it the first time but did on the second viewing, probably only because I was looking for it.
Wendelius
Answers:
Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam
Answers:
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam
Well I didn't know that.
It's about time they used this seamless layer change on all discs then.
Answers:
Do all players support this seamless layer change? I use an old Pioneer 626D and I am interested to know if it would make the layer change seamlessly on superbit titles.
Also I read that superbit titles don’t have macrovision protection is this true?
Answers:
Well my Pioneer 636D is very speedy on the layer changes, so I assume yours would be as well. So I would say so, yes.
Answers:
Adam Barratt.
Disney don't use the full DVD spec either,hence the name Disney DVD.
Answers:
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
Answers:
Originally posted by hate tank
The answer is easy: SONY produce **** players, Grundig produce good players.
Grundig? :lol:
Answers:
Originally posted by Bamse
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
Probably because they concentrate on picture/sound quality and on build quality with excellent drive mechanisms, rather than worrying over the layer change. Though it's more likely that, being one of the companies that are behind the DVD standard, they follow the standard very closely. This is why 100% of DVDs work on Sony players, unlike certain other cheapo brands I can think of ;). Non-standard features such as seamless layer changes (first I've heard of such a thing) may not be utilised, but still the player will play the DVD perfectly fine as it should do according to the spec.
P.S. As for why you might not notice the layer change, well it could just simply be in a sensible place. If the change is in the right place you should never notice it beyond possibly hear the drive mechanism shift slightly if you have your ear close to the machine. Many DVD manufacturers just don't care where they stick the change.
Answers:
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Why the hell do the specifications make a dvd player dump its memory?! Thats so daft!:shocker:
I've heard of expensive dvd players that make all layer changes seamless by using a buffer (cant remember the make) but now that i know that all players have a buffer and could have seamless layer changes but the dvd spec purposely puts the pause in, i'm really annoyed!!!
Answers:
Originally posted by sweetmate
Why the hell do the specifications make a dvd player dump its memory?! Thats so daft!:shocker:
I've heard of expensive dvd players that make all layer changes seamless by using a buffer (cant remember the make) but now that i know that all players have a buffer and could have seamless layer changes but the dvd spec purposely puts the pause in, i'm really annoyed!!!
Maybe it was thought that audio sync was difficult to maintain if they buffered and it's more reliable to just dump the buffer. By putting that in the spec they can be sure that all players following the spec aren't going to suffer this kind of problem. The spec doesn't purposely put the pause in, just that it doesn't try to eliminate it if it's there. The pause is down to the physical time it takes for the drive mechanism to re-seek.
Answers:
No thats wrong, the Tosh 220 has seamless layer changes, I had one but returned it for a Sony 700 as although the Tosh had an amazing drive, the picture was none too great.
Answers:
My Pioneer is very slow at layer changes, the slowest I've had.
My first player, a Sammy 709 (ahhhh bless it) had an amazingly fast change but I gave it to my then girlfriend and got a Sony 336.....the Sony had an ok layer change but as is common with many Sony DVD/CD transports, the laser packed up after 12 months rendering it a doorstop.
Then I got my current Pioneer 444 which has a slower change than the Sony but has slightly better edge definition and colour reproduction. I have two Superbit titles so I'll have to check them out......
As for the layer change in Panic Room...I wish it was about 2 hours long......**** film I thought :)
Answers:
My only experience with a Toshiba SD220 showed clearly visible layer changes. There are players with nearly invisible layer changes available, thanks to their use of multi-speed ATAPI DVD-ROM drives. Apex, Panasonic, Denon and Meridian have used these drives with success. The high speed of these drives and their laser assemblies allows them to re-track and buffer much more rapidly than the single-speed drives used by the vast majority of set-top DVD players.
The use of non-seamless layer changes isn't a playback issue (although there is a possibility that some early players would be unable to negotiate a seamless change). It's an authoring issue. At the time of the DVD specification's creation, there were no authoring systems that allowed reliable, seamless layer changes. Even today many/most authoring systems do not allow for seamless layer changes.
This topic was discussed at AVS several months ago. It may be of interest to some: thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=120628&perpage=20) .
Wayne, as far as I know Disney's DVDs are within spec and the Disney DVD label is merely a marketing tool (although their discs are notorious for their compatibility issues).
Adam
Answers:
ffs...please ignore
Answers:
It's probably using a Reverse Spiral layer change too as this is much faster - practically instant.
Answers:
Why are Sony players so slow at layer changes?
I agree my NS900 could be better but for most DVD's I don't notice is at all. I have the new Hellraiser set and the layer change is awful and isn't placed very well on the DVD's. The NS900 takes a good second to get past the layer change. My new NS585 is much quicker on the same DVD's and I hardly notice it.
Sony make excellent players and I prefer them over most other makes. At least I won't have any problems with discs not working. I haven't had a disc fail yet in a Sony compared to other makes I have used such as Pioneer, Ebench, Samsung, Cyberhome and Toshiba.
Answers:
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old? :eek: ;)
Answers:
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old? :eek: ;)
Roy apparently...to write: "ffs...please ignore" :suspect:
:lol:
Answers:
Blast from the past. Who dug this thread up, it's two years old?
I didn't realise. :D
Anyway, the layer change is still a problem on many players after two years.
Answers:
Probably because they concentrate on picture/sound quality and on build quality with excellent drive mechanisms...
Hmm, I wonder...
I've gone through 2 Sony DVD players in 3 years which have suffered C:13:00 laser failures... :oh-hum:
Answers:
Back in the good old days, before I had a proper dvd player, I used to use a creative dxr2 PC DVDROM drive with TV out. This never once paused on a layer change. I always put the pause in proper players down to the fact that the drives in them just aren't as good as those found in PCs. I recently purchased a Pionee DV575 player, which I thought might not pause on changes, but still does, only momentarily, but still long enough for my marantz amp to lose signal and then try and work out what's going on. This causes a sound dropout for a second or so, so if a layer change is badly positioned such as during a scene, you lose dialog. Most annoying!
Answers:
I also had a DXR 2 in my PC (still have it but don't use it). DVD ROM drives such as this have a buffer that makes the layer change seemless. Many cheap players also use DVD ROM drives which is you don't see the layer changes.
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