Question:
Following recent discussions/arguements over R1 v R2, I wondered if anyone knew the actual difference in speed between the formats, and whether the resulting change in pitch is actually noticable (e.g. is it a semi-tone, less/more?)
Cheers
Jez
I only notice the pitch change in some voices -- tends to be the deeper voices that are most affected. I usually notice a change in speed during music or songs.
I don't really notice anything in terms of a change in pitch.
Its pitched up by 0.679 of a semitone, to 3 signficant figures.
Its log(1.04)/log(2^(1/12)) if you really want to know;)
Record some music from a CD and use Goldwave (www.goldwave.com) to speed it up by 4% and judge for yourself - it seems to be a very personal thing.
Or just use a Winam plugin.
I've only noticed it with the Superman DVD especially the music but there's some effects sounds which I noticed were higher pitched when I saw the film on TV recently.
like cornelius, I notice the effect when hearing something in the sped up presentation with which I am familiar at normal speeds - usually some kind of music, but it can be voices too...
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC.
Thanks for all your feed-back.
Mr Nice, if its two thirds of a semi-tone then that's a pretty big difference! No wonder the American's take the ******
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?)
Originally posted by Bingo Bongo
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?) Yep, the PAL speed-up is as near to 4% as makes no difference!
Originally posted by Bingo Bongo
Thanks for all your feed-back.
Mr Nice, if its two thirds of a semi-tone then that's a pretty big difference! No wonder the American's take the ******
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?) Yep, speeding 24fps up to 25fps is exactly where it comes from. Actually I made a minor error in my calculation, although most people say "4% speed up", and thats what I used (1.04), 25/24 is what I should have used and its slightly larger then 4% speed up, the correct figure is 0.707 of a semitone(to 3 sf);). Never notice it myself outside of side by side. My advice: If you don't notice it don't worry about it, same with NTSC 3:2 pulldown judder, I can notice it, but plenty of people can't. The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
Originally posted by DarkAvenger
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC. I agree and Senator Palmer had a much deeper voice on the BBC airing.
How can that be though? Surely it would have been converted from NTSC and therefore not suffer from the PAL speedup!?!?
:confused: :confused:
Surely both the BBC and the DVD would of suffered from PAL speed up, since they were both PAL,
James
Originally posted by Mr Nice
The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
Like me you mean :p
Sometimes I worry my senses aren't as good as they should be.
James
If you download the WinDVD4 DVD player trial from www.intervideo.com you can alter the pitch of the soundtrack, it works surprisingly well. Only useful for PC playback though.
Originally posted by Mr Nice
Yep, speeding 24fps up to 25fps is exactly where it comes from. Actually I made a minor error in my calculation, although most people say "4% speed up", and thats what I used (1.04), 25/24 is what I should have used and its slightly larger then 4% speed up, the correct figure is 0.707 of a semitone(to 3 sf);). Never notice it myself outside of side by side. My advice: If you don't notice it don't worry about it, same with NTSC 3:2 pulldown judder, I can notice it, but plenty of people can't. The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
I think what is usually stated is that the duration of the film is 4% less (The speed is increased by 25/24, hence the running time is 24/25 of the original - exactly 4% slower )
I would guess that to convert from 30fps to 25fps they would drop every 6th frame and hence keep the running time the same, so that shouldn't affect the soundtrack. I can't think of a conversion method that would alter the speed as well.
Originally posted by DarkAvenger
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC.
I do not get it. DVD and BBC are PAL 50Hz.
I would guess the sound problem comes from the fact that the bandwith dedicated to the sound (even Nicam) is lower "in the air" than the one on a DVD.
Anyway TV loudspeakers are 99% of the time crap.
One question. Assuming a convertor PAL 50 -> PAL 60 exists. Can it does the trick and display the movie at the right speed ?
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
One question. Assuming a convertor PAL 50 -> PAL 60 exists. Can it does the trick and display the movie at the right speed ? They do exist and no they don't change the speed. How could they? It would have to have a monster amount of memory to store up a video and audio signal and then replay it slower. Converters convert real-time ie the speed of the output is identical to the speed of the input.
As to the core question - I'd suggest that most people don't notice UNLESS they do an A/B comparison. Only then will they perceive what, in those circumstances, is a very obvious difference. But, in isolation, a speeded-up PAL soundtrack isn't noticeable. After all, nobody ever cared about 4% PAL speedup in the days when the only ways to watch a movie were at the cinema and on TV.
Originally posted by Cornelius
I've only noticed it with the Superman DVD especially the music but there's some effects sounds which I noticed were higher pitched when I saw the film on TV recently.
Only time I noticed was Superman as well and its bloody awful!
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
I do not get it. DVD and BBC are PAL 50Hz.
BBC have sometimes had different sources for their US material that runs with a different pitch. I don't know how techically this happens, but there was a bit of fuss many years back when BBC changed the source material for the Star Trek: Next Generation series and everyone started complaining that the voices sounded different.
I guess it's down to the method used to convert from NTSC(30fps) to PAL(25fps). This is different to the conversion of a film(24fps) to PAL(25fps), and I believe there is more than one way to covert 30->25fps.
I suspect that the BBC might use something like the Alchemist from http://www.snellwilcox.com/ to do the standards conversion, which I think will not result in a speed up. Probably a bit pricey for home cimnema use however...
_
Also whilst a movie or tv program will remain 'faster' after conversion to pal, the soundtrack can be processed to remove the increase in pitch.
I'd imagine the time involved (and cost) means that this isn't widely used by UK broadcasters.
I'm too busy actually watching the dvds to notice things like this.:rolleyes: :nuts:
The only time i've noticed this speed up is going from the R1 season of Friends and hearing my Sister play the R2 version in another room straight after. It's quite startling how much quicker it seems to be playing but until you can hear the direct comparisons i find it quite hard to tell them apart and i consider myself to have a fine musical ear.
Aw come on! I love the DVD format first and foremost because it does such a brilliant job of presenting excellent (*and *****) movies.
But are you really surprised that members of the dvd forum are as passionate about the quality of movie presentation and the technical aspects of the dvd format that affect this - as they are about films themselves?
Surely not! :D
*in reply to Chris21
Originally posted by LV426
They do exist and no they don't change the speed. How could they? It would have to have a monster amount of memory to store up a video and audio signal and then replay it slower.
Well my DVD player does convert NTSC 60 -> PAL 50 and the movie is played faster. You notice it cause the player skip some frames.
With Region 1 titles I sometimes notice a slight jerkiness in playback. Why?
This is because you are playing an NTSC title and converting it to PAL50. The effect you are seeing (which is most noticeable on slow panning shots and end credits) is as a result of frames being dropped during the conversion. Believe me, the LG does a much better job of this than many other players and for the most part is unnoticeable. To avoid this effect completely you need a TV which supports either PAL60 (Pseudo PAL On in the Setup Menu) or NTSC (TV System Select switch on the rear of the player to AUTO).
I though some R1 players could do the reverse meaning the movie is then displayed slower.
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
Well my DVD player does convert NTSC 60 -> PAL 50 and the movie is played faster. You notice it cause the player skip some framesWith respect, Butch - utter garbage. The player 'skip some frames' because and only because, in each second, the NTSC source is playing 30 frames, but the PAL50 output is producing 25 frames. So, each second, 5 frames have to be skipped.
If you stopwatch a given DVD title replayed in NTSC, and the exact same one replayed converted to PAL50 on your player, the elapsed time will be identical.
Originally posted by LV426
With respect, Butch - utter garbage. The player 'skip some frames' because and only because, in each second, the NTSC source is playing 30 frames, but the PAL50 output is producing 25 frames. So, each second, 5 frames have to be skipped.
If you stopwatch a given DVD title replayed in NTSC, and the exact same one replayed converted to PAL50 on your player, the elapsed time will be identical. Seconded. Even if hte player did decide to do this, it is incapable of changing the playback speed of the audio, since that is controlled by your amp.
I guess its a case of what you don't know won't hurt you because as soon as I've heard a region 1 film that I've bought to replace an old region 2 or if I've got the soundtrack cd, its all pretty noticable. While on The Matrix R1 Mr Smith sound like an evil villian should, on the R2 he sounds slightly camp due to the speed up.
If directors, composers and artists take all that time to remaster and clean up their work for the dvd Im going for region 1 discs without the speed up because its the way the films were meant to be shown (there may be exceptions, Maybe the DVD makers slowing down the original film by 4% before its speeded up for us:confused: ) Ah well films is films at the end of the day and there great! :thumbs: Hooray for films!
Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film which means the speed up isn't an issue, but there can be other side-affects. This is one possible cause of the recent audio problems on the PAL versions of Lord of The Rings.
"Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film..."
...do they indeed?... when?... name three examples - please!...
(signed) Severely Doubting Thomas
. . . :o . . .
Originally posted by Hendrik
"Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film..."
...do they indeed?... when?... name three examples - please!...
(signed) Severely Doubting Thomas
. . . :o . . .
Lord of the Rings for one if you'd read my post, and there are almost certainly others though I can't name any others, and besides most people wouldn't be able to tell anyway. If you don't believe me, read the link, or to save time, try reading towards the bottom of http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ReviewID=1715.
Pitch correction is perfectly possible and simple to do. Not at real-time though (i.e. the player doesn't do it), it's done by the studio prior to making the discs. Whether it's a good thing to do is another matter, as the Michael-DVD review highlights.
someone here explained something about Superman.
i dont notice any difference throughout most of the film, only at the start credits sequence when the music kicks, it sounds very dodgy.
but someone here said it hasnt got anything to do with PAL speedup, it was actually a mess up when they remixed the soundtrack.
cant remember exactly what he/she said though :(
anyway, i dont normally notice the difference unless it is a side by side comparison.
but with music i know very well i notice it. Most recent example is when i watched Cruel Intentions the other week, when Bitter Sweet Symphony was playing, i could tell it was higher pitched.
DeadKenny: ...thanks for the very interesting link(s)!... the one golden-eared reviewer who was actually able to 'hear' the dropouts caused by the pitch correction does end his remarks thusly: "It has been my listening experience that all such processed soundtracks suffer from such anomalies, and is the reason why I consider calls for such speed-up processing to be applied to all PAL DVDs to be misguided."... all very reassuring to tin-eared me... and strengthening my conviction that pitch correction isn't applied that often, in fact probably (I know, I'm guessing, but so were the reviewers!) very rarely indeed ... for one thing I sincerely doubt it would be all that "simple to do" as you said ... and for another it would involve extra 'work', meaning extra man-hour(s), and therefore extra cost - the results of which would be appreciated, if at all, by a very limited number of people ... and it seems the pitch-correcting process may even have the averse result of (lip-)sync problems noted by the reviewers, which would lead to much griping by your average 'consumer' ... and... oh, but I have to get up very early to keep a doctor's appointment, so I'll take my leave and tiptoe out of the room...
. . . :smokin: . . .
Well, maybe not that simply :p, though I got the impression from stuff I'd read ages ago that it wasn't too difficult, but then it's probably a case of either trying to correct the pitch, or correcting it and getting it right, without glitches. You can probably just run the whole film through an unattended digital processing system, but the results may not be that great, so really you need a bunch of expensive technical guys to supervise it (but then for a film like LOTR it would be small cost by comparison).
I'm sure it has been applied before, but as you say it's probably rare. I'd recall now, reading somewhere, that Jurrasic Park had been pitch corrected.
I just listened to the audio clip linked to from that review, and it sounds awful. If both the R2 and R4 sound like this, then I'm very glad I went for the R1 (as usual). However, it's not the first time I've heard this 'drop out'.
I remember buying the R4 Magnolia, from Village Roadshow, and that was the first and only other title I've heard pitch-correction applied to. I don't think too many people on these forums have seen this disc, because when I started jabbering on about it over a year ago, nobody wanted to know. Ever since then, I've boycotted pitch-correction on PAL releases, despite the fact that the majority of people seemed to think it was a good idea. Only now, with the same pitch-correction applied to such a high-profile film, have people started to notice how awful it actually sounds.
For anyone still confused about pitch-correction:
1) Pitch-correction is not usually achieved by changing the frequency of the soundtrack - it is achieved by 'time-compression', where 1/25 of each second of audio is removed. This results in a 'drop-out', as some have called it. It sounds like a small 'blip' in the audio, and can be noticed especially on long, held sounds or musical notes.
2) So far, only some Village Roadshow R4 releases seem to have had this 'correction' applied.
Personally, I hate it and I'm glad some other people are starting to notice it too. Up until now I had to read some people's comments about pitch-correction, like it was an awesome process applied to practically all PAL releases. The truth is, that these people are blessed with way-less-than-perfect pitch, and simply can't hear a PAL soundtrack if it walked up and slapped them in the face - um....ear. So, let it be settled once and for all. If you think something is pitch-corrected, it probably isn't, unless it's from Village Roadshow and it sounds crap.
Originally posted by jamesking420
Surely both the BBC and the DVD would of suffered from PAL speed up, since they were both PAL,
James
No the BBC converstion did not suffer from PAL speed up.
The BBC used an older alchemist converter, worse picture but no speedup.
Cheers
Jez
Answers:
I only notice the pitch change in some voices -- tends to be the deeper voices that are most affected. I usually notice a change in speed during music or songs.
Answers:
I don't really notice anything in terms of a change in pitch.
Answers:
Its pitched up by 0.679 of a semitone, to 3 signficant figures.
Its log(1.04)/log(2^(1/12)) if you really want to know;)
Answers:
Record some music from a CD and use Goldwave (www.goldwave.com) to speed it up by 4% and judge for yourself - it seems to be a very personal thing.
Answers:
Or just use a Winam plugin.
Answers:
I've only noticed it with the Superman DVD especially the music but there's some effects sounds which I noticed were higher pitched when I saw the film on TV recently.
Answers:
like cornelius, I notice the effect when hearing something in the sped up presentation with which I am familiar at normal speeds - usually some kind of music, but it can be voices too...
Answers:
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC.
Answers:
Thanks for all your feed-back.
Mr Nice, if its two thirds of a semi-tone then that's a pretty big difference! No wonder the American's take the ******
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?)
Answers:
Originally posted by Bingo Bongo
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?) Yep, the PAL speed-up is as near to 4% as makes no difference!
Answers:
Originally posted by Bingo Bongo
Thanks for all your feed-back.
Mr Nice, if its two thirds of a semi-tone then that's a pretty big difference! No wonder the American's take the ******
Is the increase equivalent to having to run a 25 frames per second refresh, on a film running at 24 frames per sec?
(i.e. 1/24th faster?) Yep, speeding 24fps up to 25fps is exactly where it comes from. Actually I made a minor error in my calculation, although most people say "4% speed up", and thats what I used (1.04), 25/24 is what I should have used and its slightly larger then 4% speed up, the correct figure is 0.707 of a semitone(to 3 sf);). Never notice it myself outside of side by side. My advice: If you don't notice it don't worry about it, same with NTSC 3:2 pulldown judder, I can notice it, but plenty of people can't. The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
Answers:
Originally posted by DarkAvenger
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC. I agree and Senator Palmer had a much deeper voice on the BBC airing.
How can that be though? Surely it would have been converted from NTSC and therefore not suffer from the PAL speedup!?!?
:confused: :confused:
Answers:
Surely both the BBC and the DVD would of suffered from PAL speed up, since they were both PAL,
James
Answers:
Originally posted by Mr Nice
The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
Like me you mean :p
Sometimes I worry my senses aren't as good as they should be.
James
Answers:
If you download the WinDVD4 DVD player trial from www.intervideo.com you can alter the pitch of the soundtrack, it works surprisingly well. Only useful for PC playback though.
Answers:
Originally posted by Mr Nice
Yep, speeding 24fps up to 25fps is exactly where it comes from. Actually I made a minor error in my calculation, although most people say "4% speed up", and thats what I used (1.04), 25/24 is what I should have used and its slightly larger then 4% speed up, the correct figure is 0.707 of a semitone(to 3 sf);). Never notice it myself outside of side by side. My advice: If you don't notice it don't worry about it, same with NTSC 3:2 pulldown judder, I can notice it, but plenty of people can't. The really lucky people are obviously those who can't spot pitch up or pulldown judder;).
I think what is usually stated is that the duration of the film is 4% less (The speed is increased by 25/24, hence the running time is 24/25 of the original - exactly 4% slower )
I would guess that to convert from 30fps to 25fps they would drop every 6th frame and hence keep the running time the same, so that shouldn't affect the soundtrack. I can't think of a conversion method that would alter the speed as well.
Answers:
Originally posted by DarkAvenger
Kiefer Sutherland's voice on the 24 DVD's sounds different to the episodes that aired on BBC.
I do not get it. DVD and BBC are PAL 50Hz.
I would guess the sound problem comes from the fact that the bandwith dedicated to the sound (even Nicam) is lower "in the air" than the one on a DVD.
Anyway TV loudspeakers are 99% of the time crap.
One question. Assuming a convertor PAL 50 -> PAL 60 exists. Can it does the trick and display the movie at the right speed ?
Answers:
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
One question. Assuming a convertor PAL 50 -> PAL 60 exists. Can it does the trick and display the movie at the right speed ? They do exist and no they don't change the speed. How could they? It would have to have a monster amount of memory to store up a video and audio signal and then replay it slower. Converters convert real-time ie the speed of the output is identical to the speed of the input.
As to the core question - I'd suggest that most people don't notice UNLESS they do an A/B comparison. Only then will they perceive what, in those circumstances, is a very obvious difference. But, in isolation, a speeded-up PAL soundtrack isn't noticeable. After all, nobody ever cared about 4% PAL speedup in the days when the only ways to watch a movie were at the cinema and on TV.
Answers:
Originally posted by Cornelius
I've only noticed it with the Superman DVD especially the music but there's some effects sounds which I noticed were higher pitched when I saw the film on TV recently.
Only time I noticed was Superman as well and its bloody awful!
Answers:
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
I do not get it. DVD and BBC are PAL 50Hz.
BBC have sometimes had different sources for their US material that runs with a different pitch. I don't know how techically this happens, but there was a bit of fuss many years back when BBC changed the source material for the Star Trek: Next Generation series and everyone started complaining that the voices sounded different.
I guess it's down to the method used to convert from NTSC(30fps) to PAL(25fps). This is different to the conversion of a film(24fps) to PAL(25fps), and I believe there is more than one way to covert 30->25fps.
Answers:
I suspect that the BBC might use something like the Alchemist from http://www.snellwilcox.com/ to do the standards conversion, which I think will not result in a speed up. Probably a bit pricey for home cimnema use however...
_
Answers:
Also whilst a movie or tv program will remain 'faster' after conversion to pal, the soundtrack can be processed to remove the increase in pitch.
I'd imagine the time involved (and cost) means that this isn't widely used by UK broadcasters.
Answers:
I'm too busy actually watching the dvds to notice things like this.:rolleyes: :nuts:
Answers:
The only time i've noticed this speed up is going from the R1 season of Friends and hearing my Sister play the R2 version in another room straight after. It's quite startling how much quicker it seems to be playing but until you can hear the direct comparisons i find it quite hard to tell them apart and i consider myself to have a fine musical ear.
Answers:
Aw come on! I love the DVD format first and foremost because it does such a brilliant job of presenting excellent (*and *****) movies.
But are you really surprised that members of the dvd forum are as passionate about the quality of movie presentation and the technical aspects of the dvd format that affect this - as they are about films themselves?
Surely not! :D
*in reply to Chris21
Answers:
Originally posted by LV426
They do exist and no they don't change the speed. How could they? It would have to have a monster amount of memory to store up a video and audio signal and then replay it slower.
Well my DVD player does convert NTSC 60 -> PAL 50 and the movie is played faster. You notice it cause the player skip some frames.
With Region 1 titles I sometimes notice a slight jerkiness in playback. Why?
This is because you are playing an NTSC title and converting it to PAL50. The effect you are seeing (which is most noticeable on slow panning shots and end credits) is as a result of frames being dropped during the conversion. Believe me, the LG does a much better job of this than many other players and for the most part is unnoticeable. To avoid this effect completely you need a TV which supports either PAL60 (Pseudo PAL On in the Setup Menu) or NTSC (TV System Select switch on the rear of the player to AUTO).
I though some R1 players could do the reverse meaning the movie is then displayed slower.
Answers:
Originally posted by Butch Coolidge
Well my DVD player does convert NTSC 60 -> PAL 50 and the movie is played faster. You notice it cause the player skip some framesWith respect, Butch - utter garbage. The player 'skip some frames' because and only because, in each second, the NTSC source is playing 30 frames, but the PAL50 output is producing 25 frames. So, each second, 5 frames have to be skipped.
If you stopwatch a given DVD title replayed in NTSC, and the exact same one replayed converted to PAL50 on your player, the elapsed time will be identical.
Answers:
Originally posted by LV426
With respect, Butch - utter garbage. The player 'skip some frames' because and only because, in each second, the NTSC source is playing 30 frames, but the PAL50 output is producing 25 frames. So, each second, 5 frames have to be skipped.
If you stopwatch a given DVD title replayed in NTSC, and the exact same one replayed converted to PAL50 on your player, the elapsed time will be identical. Seconded. Even if hte player did decide to do this, it is incapable of changing the playback speed of the audio, since that is controlled by your amp.
Answers:
I guess its a case of what you don't know won't hurt you because as soon as I've heard a region 1 film that I've bought to replace an old region 2 or if I've got the soundtrack cd, its all pretty noticable. While on The Matrix R1 Mr Smith sound like an evil villian should, on the R2 he sounds slightly camp due to the speed up.
If directors, composers and artists take all that time to remaster and clean up their work for the dvd Im going for region 1 discs without the speed up because its the way the films were meant to be shown (there may be exceptions, Maybe the DVD makers slowing down the original film by 4% before its speeded up for us:confused: ) Ah well films is films at the end of the day and there great! :thumbs: Hooray for films!
Answers:
Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film which means the speed up isn't an issue, but there can be other side-affects. This is one possible cause of the recent audio problems on the PAL versions of Lord of The Rings.
Answers:
"Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film..."
...do they indeed?... when?... name three examples - please!...
(signed) Severely Doubting Thomas
. . . :o . . .
Answers:
Originally posted by Hendrik
"Of course, sometimes they pitch correct the film..."
...do they indeed?... when?... name three examples - please!...
(signed) Severely Doubting Thomas
. . . :o . . .
Lord of the Rings for one if you'd read my post, and there are almost certainly others though I can't name any others, and besides most people wouldn't be able to tell anyway. If you don't believe me, read the link, or to save time, try reading towards the bottom of http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Reviews.asp?ReviewID=1715.
Pitch correction is perfectly possible and simple to do. Not at real-time though (i.e. the player doesn't do it), it's done by the studio prior to making the discs. Whether it's a good thing to do is another matter, as the Michael-DVD review highlights.
Answers:
someone here explained something about Superman.
i dont notice any difference throughout most of the film, only at the start credits sequence when the music kicks, it sounds very dodgy.
but someone here said it hasnt got anything to do with PAL speedup, it was actually a mess up when they remixed the soundtrack.
cant remember exactly what he/she said though :(
anyway, i dont normally notice the difference unless it is a side by side comparison.
but with music i know very well i notice it. Most recent example is when i watched Cruel Intentions the other week, when Bitter Sweet Symphony was playing, i could tell it was higher pitched.
Answers:
DeadKenny: ...thanks for the very interesting link(s)!... the one golden-eared reviewer who was actually able to 'hear' the dropouts caused by the pitch correction does end his remarks thusly: "It has been my listening experience that all such processed soundtracks suffer from such anomalies, and is the reason why I consider calls for such speed-up processing to be applied to all PAL DVDs to be misguided."... all very reassuring to tin-eared me... and strengthening my conviction that pitch correction isn't applied that often, in fact probably (I know, I'm guessing, but so were the reviewers!) very rarely indeed ... for one thing I sincerely doubt it would be all that "simple to do" as you said ... and for another it would involve extra 'work', meaning extra man-hour(s), and therefore extra cost - the results of which would be appreciated, if at all, by a very limited number of people ... and it seems the pitch-correcting process may even have the averse result of (lip-)sync problems noted by the reviewers, which would lead to much griping by your average 'consumer' ... and... oh, but I have to get up very early to keep a doctor's appointment, so I'll take my leave and tiptoe out of the room...
. . . :smokin: . . .
Answers:
Well, maybe not that simply :p, though I got the impression from stuff I'd read ages ago that it wasn't too difficult, but then it's probably a case of either trying to correct the pitch, or correcting it and getting it right, without glitches. You can probably just run the whole film through an unattended digital processing system, but the results may not be that great, so really you need a bunch of expensive technical guys to supervise it (but then for a film like LOTR it would be small cost by comparison).
I'm sure it has been applied before, but as you say it's probably rare. I'd recall now, reading somewhere, that Jurrasic Park had been pitch corrected.
Answers:
I just listened to the audio clip linked to from that review, and it sounds awful. If both the R2 and R4 sound like this, then I'm very glad I went for the R1 (as usual). However, it's not the first time I've heard this 'drop out'.
I remember buying the R4 Magnolia, from Village Roadshow, and that was the first and only other title I've heard pitch-correction applied to. I don't think too many people on these forums have seen this disc, because when I started jabbering on about it over a year ago, nobody wanted to know. Ever since then, I've boycotted pitch-correction on PAL releases, despite the fact that the majority of people seemed to think it was a good idea. Only now, with the same pitch-correction applied to such a high-profile film, have people started to notice how awful it actually sounds.
For anyone still confused about pitch-correction:
1) Pitch-correction is not usually achieved by changing the frequency of the soundtrack - it is achieved by 'time-compression', where 1/25 of each second of audio is removed. This results in a 'drop-out', as some have called it. It sounds like a small 'blip' in the audio, and can be noticed especially on long, held sounds or musical notes.
2) So far, only some Village Roadshow R4 releases seem to have had this 'correction' applied.
Personally, I hate it and I'm glad some other people are starting to notice it too. Up until now I had to read some people's comments about pitch-correction, like it was an awesome process applied to practically all PAL releases. The truth is, that these people are blessed with way-less-than-perfect pitch, and simply can't hear a PAL soundtrack if it walked up and slapped them in the face - um....ear. So, let it be settled once and for all. If you think something is pitch-corrected, it probably isn't, unless it's from Village Roadshow and it sounds crap.
Answers:
Originally posted by jamesking420
Surely both the BBC and the DVD would of suffered from PAL speed up, since they were both PAL,
James
No the BBC converstion did not suffer from PAL speed up.
The BBC used an older alchemist converter, worse picture but no speedup.
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