Question:
Can't understand why this hasn't been standard on DVD players since day one but kudos to Denon for actually listening to the market.
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=4508
That's great news and a tidy player.
I'll keep that in mind when we move ... as we'll be looking for a new player to go with a PJ.
:thumbs:
At last, a DVD player with a "massive" 2MB memory buffer!!! :rolleyes:
It's not the size of the buffer, it's the motion of the picture. :D
It's gonna need a bit more than 2MB for a pickup dropout considering the high bitrate Video/DTS stream. :D
OK, so if you were using DTS / Superbit disk ... how long would 2mb last? It's a serious question ... I don't know.
Originally posted by Way_2_FAT
It's gonna need a bit more than 2MB for a pickup dropout considering the high bitrate Video/DTS stream. :D
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
Nice analysis there GM. :)
Originally posted by Grandmaster
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
True but it's still not enough to buffer a laser drop out (from slitghly scatched discs etc...) unless the player has a very fast DVD-ROM drive.
Edit: typo...
Layer change does not represent lost data, a scratched disk does so there will be a pause regardles with a damaged disk.
Not quite, while slightly scratched discs may be difficult to read, it's still readable although the laser will take a few tries reading the same sector of the disc over and over again, that's where a larger buffer comes into play.
2 MB Buffer Memory ensures that both picture and sound are played without interruption when the DVD disc shifts from layer 1 to layer 2, or in the event of a pickup dropout.
Some discs (very slight scraches) on my Toshiba for example, skips on certain scenes while my Ricoh combo dvdrom drive with a large 4MB cache plays back all the discs flawlessly...
On my faster Pioneer dvdrom drive with a 2MB cache the discs all stutter slighly (split second pause) although still handles the discs much better than any standalone dvd player I've tried.
Don't get me wrong, Denon do produce quality AV kits and I wouldn't mind getting one... ;)
Edit: can't type... :brickwall
This "feature" is nothing new at all on DVD players though is it?
Most of the budget chinese OEM players give invisible layer changes...my Compacks DVD5000 certainly does...although it definitely doesn't cater for "pickup droupouts" I don't think; the seamless branching issues being a case in point...
:confused:
already available for £170 M/R at www.avland.co.uk
Bargain price if the player is as good as it looks....
does this have prog scan ? if so is it for PAL and NTSC ?
Doesn't look like it - component out yes, but no mention of PS.
Brilliant!
It's the only thing I would really fault DVD for.
:clap:
There was a long thread about this quite a long time ago when soebody was looking for a DVD player with seamless layer changes. I think they found a high end (at the t
Originally posted by Radiohead
already available for £170 M/R at www.avland.co.uk
Bargain price if the player is as good as it looks....
..........or the Sony DVP-NS730 (http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/dvpns730/index.htm) multiregion for £149-95 which seems like the cut down version of the '930' (minus scart in, SACD and built-in decoder). Unlike the Denon it has progressive scan on the component output. But usually the layer change on Sony players are a bit worse than average, so it's all a bit of a trade-off.
I'm still trying to find out what the '730' is like compared to the '930', but the user interface is the same so I'm hopeful that the component output is the same as on the '930' (which is excellent by all accounts).
PS on the component output surely.....
Not quite in the same league, but does anyone know what the buffer size is on the XBOX? I've never noticed a layer change on that so it might be interesting to compare the two.
I've always wondered why this wasn't done before...can't be the price of memory and I can't see it being a difficult problem to solve, luckily my pioneer aint too bad at layer changes.
Any more players (standalones) that do this?
Originally posted by Radiohead
PS on the component output surely.....
Not if this German review (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/denondvd700.shtml&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddvd%2B700%2Bdenon%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DISO-8859-1%26sa%3DN%26as_qdr%3Dall) is anything to go by:
"Thus an YUV exit is available, which spends however only Interlaced signals and no progressive Scan signals." (excuse the translation)
Also, worryingly it doesn't offer the option of outputting s-video through the SCART (again, if my translation is accurate)
"The Scartbuchse can spend either RGB or FBAS, not however s-video. Who would like to attach the Player via s-video, must fall back to the s-video-Hosidenbuchse."
Bugger.
Originally posted by Radiohead
PS on the component output surely.....
Yes that is what I meant............I blame the heat! (corrected, but you were too quick for me. :) )
Originally posted by FlangeMonkey
This "feature" is nothing new at all on DVD players though is it?
Most of the budget chinese OEM players give invisible layer changes...my Compacks DVD5000 certainly does...although it definitely doesn't cater for "pickup droupouts" I don't think; the seamless branching issues being a case in point...
:confused: That's because budget chinese players essentially use PC DVD-ROM drives, which pratically all come with a few mb of buffer(and if actually used on a PC, Windows buffers quite a bit as well). This will certainly help with pickup dropouts as well. (this use of a dvd-rom drive is also why they tend to have better cd/dvd-r/rw compatibility too).
The seamless branching issue is subtly different. The drive buffers by simple reading ahead. Hence why it works for layer changes and pickup dropouts. But on branching, the next bit of data needed may or may not be directly ahead. But the buffer doesn't know that, so blindly reads a few mb of essentially usesless data beyond the branch.
However, the playback software in the player does know about the branch, so in principle if it had a more active control over the buffer/disc reading, it could make it not "overshoot" but get on with reading the correct data after the branch, even though the player hasn't quite played up to the pranch yet. It could be that the Denon does perform this kind of more "active" buffer control, or they could just be playing up a feature budget players have had for a couple of years:D.
Originally posted by cjb110
Any more players (standalones) that do this?
The Denon DVD900 also has this additional memory. I'm sure you'll probably find that other Denon players will have too. Lets hope other manufacturers follow suit.
.
Originally posted by rwniel
(corrected, but you were too quick for me. :) )
It's a common complaint, where Radiohead is concerned. Don't worry about it. ;):D
Mrs SSB, on the other hand, keeps coming back for more.
Go figure.
:D
Touche ... ginge.
I have had a Denon A1 for a year now and I have never noticed a layer change in any film!!
Their customer service sucks in the UK but they make a decent product!
There was another thread about layer changes on here, I will again repeat what I posted there:
Superbit dvd do not (or at least on my player Pioneer 656a) have a noticeable layer change. They even claim this in the leaflet in the box. All dvd should be manufactured this way.
Does anyone actually know how superbits do not suffer this.
I think they are simply extremely well positioned and use the extra space on the dvd-18 disc to allow more sensible placement.
But ain't "DVD-18" just dual layer on BOTH sides of the disc? :nuts:
Yes ... a DVD 9 is single sided dual layer, DVD 18 is double sided dual layer
I have to say, I haven't noticed any significant layer change delay on my Tosh 330.. Or am I just too slow-witted to spot it? :D
Andy
Does anyone know where the Denon D-700 Silver one is in stock anywhere?
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/dvd700/index.htm
??
Originally posted by Radiohead
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/dvd700/index.htm
??
None in Silver for weeks,I've just rang them up.Black are out.They've got Gold one's.
Bum - quite fancied one
Have you tried www.homecinemaheaven.com ?
Originally posted by sideshowbob
"The Scartbuchse can spend either RGB or FBAS, not however s-video. Who would like to attach the Player via s-video, must fall back to the s-video-Hosidenbuchse."
Bugger.
Why is this a problem? An s-video (4 pin din) connection should give a better picture than a SCART carrrying s-video.
Or am I missing the point completely?
Originally posted by Radiohead
Bum - quite fancied one
Have you tried www.homecinemaheaven.com ?
Ordered it from my Leicester Hi-Fi store,£199.They're ordering it from Denon themselves,who have stock.
:clap:
Nice one - post back when you get it to let me know what it's like.
Originally posted by lovegroova
Why is this a problem? An s-video (4 pin din) connection should give a better picture than a SCART carrrying s-video.
Or am I missing the point completely?
I guess it's the flexibility / connectivity thing. Some TVs will only have the s-video socket on the front AV panel, whereas the rear SCART (s) will be s-video compatible. So, my preference would generally be for a machine which can output s-video through SCART as well as the s-video socket. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't, just inconvient for some I'd guess.
Originally posted by Radiohead
Nice one - post back when you get it to let me know what it's like.
OK.
I should of said it was R2 from my local Sevenoaks.Is there one near you?
I can record on my Panasonic E50 DVD and watch a DVD movie,if I want,as well then :) .
Originally posted by sideshowbob
I guess it's the flexibility / connectivity thing. Some TVs will only have the s-video socket on the front AV panel, whereas the rear SCART (s) will be s-video compatible. So, my preference would generally be for a machine which can output s-video through SCART as well as the s-video socket. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't, just inconvient for some I'd guess.
surely you can just use an s-video to scart cable ? s-vid at the dvd end/scart at the TV end ? IXOS make them.
You're right of course. But that's an added (and unnecessary) expense if you're used to outputting s-video through the SCART. ;)
I'm not saying it's a fatal flaw, but I do think that in some cases it might be a limiting factor or annoyance for people. Like you've pointed out, it can easily be overcome. But, given the inclusion of a 2mb buffer (where others don't), I'm still somewhat surprised that they don't allow for s-video output via the SCART.
:)
With regard to the layer change I've never understood why some third party manufacturer doesn't build a series of memory buffer plug in devices.
If you're watching purely through the telly a simple box that plugs in between the dvd scart out and the scart lead going to the telly would do the job.
I'm sure other solutions couldn't be that hard to design for systems using seperate amplification.
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them
Originally posted by James45
With regard to the layer change I've never understood why some third party manufacturer doesn't build a series of memory buffer plug in devices.
If you're watching purely through the telly a simple box that plugs in between the dvd scart out and the scart lead going to the telly would do the job.
I'm sure other solutions couldn't be that hard to design for systems using seperate amplification.
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them
If you have an external box how are you going to stop video and audio going out of sync?
Originally posted by Dave Metcalf
Not quite in the same league, but does anyone know what the buffer size is on the XBOX? I've never noticed a layer change on that so it might be interesting to compare the two.
64MB in theory, I assume it just uses the main console memory rather than having a seperate buffer or fixed buffer area.
It's pretty standard for dvd drives (very likely to include the xbox) to have a memory buffer/cache, the xbox is likely to use the main system memory to buffer data constantly, as games will probably stutter/pause badly without it...
Originally posted by Mr Nice
That's because budget chinese players essentially use PC DVD-ROM drives, which pratically all come with a few mb of buffer(and if actually used on a PC, Windows buffers quite a bit as well). This will certainly help with pickup dropouts as well. (this use of a dvd-rom drive is also why they tend to have better cd/dvd-r/rw compatibility too).
Most generic dvd rom drives as fitted to some of the cheap dvd players don't have cache in megabytes its more like 128k-512k of cache which isn't enough to buffer the layer change on its own however these drives have upto 12x dvd mechanisms (mostly in the region of 5-8x though) hence the reason picture search is often better on these players too.
I see now though that chinese decks are moving away from pc drives and ide interfaces but instead having custom lower cost interfaces and much more basic loaders. So if anything the japs seem to be moving away from layer change pauses and the chinese players are going to reintroduce it. Some of the newer dvd chipsets integrate dvd loader logic onboard so it won't be long before chinese dvd players are little more than a laser, motor and lsi chip. In fact cd walkmans with dvd functionality for £20 or so surely aren't that far off.
Originally posted by ljp
If you have an external box how are you going to stop video and audio going out of sync?
Hey design your own money maker! :D it was just an idea, but as I said if you were watching just through the tv the audio and video signals are both past through the scart so that wouldn't matter.
If you wanted to use an external amp both video and audio signals could be fed to the same external box and then outputed to both the display and amp and kept in synch within the box. simple idea and it would sell by the bucket load. anyone want to develop it for me? The ideas up for sale cheap.:wave:
Originally posted by James45
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them I certainly wouldn't - big fuss over nothing, imo..
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
Originally posted by Bapapapa
I certainly wouldn't - big fuss over nothing, imo..
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
The 900 perhaps.
It'd better work or it'll go back.
i think all denon players have had the memory buffer in for a while, meridian don't seem to have a layer change either but their players cost thousands!!
I would certainly pay £50 to avoid being lifted out the movie experience by layer change which can be extremely jarring at times!
I mailed Denon to get a final answer (which we already knew) on the progressive output ...
Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon products.
The Denon DVD-700 does not output a Pure Progressive signal, the signal from the Component video output would be classed as an Interlaced signal.
The following players can playback Pure Progressive :
DVD-2800II NTSC (Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date )
DVD-2900NTSC/PAL
DVD-A1 NTSC(Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date)
Regards
Hayden Laboratories (KP)
Worth noting that the Multiregion DVD900, which also features the 2mb buffer is £204 at www.hifibitz.com (http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/Warehouse/details.asp?ProductID=DENDVD900BK) ... but seems to have no component output ... which is, of course, a bit gay.
...
ps - the DVD900 is also available in GoLd.
:gag:
Originally posted by Bapapapa
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
You mean the DVD A1 , it did work so I guess you dont mean that one(?) - they only have one scart as they would prefer you to use s-video or component to get a better picture.
Originally posted by sideshowbob
I mailed Denon to get a final answer (which we already knew) on the progressive output ...
Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon products.
The Denon DVD-700 does not output a Pure Progressive signal, the signal from the Component video output would be classed as an Interlaced signal.
The following players can playback Pure Progressive :
DVD-2800II NTSC (Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date )
DVD-2900NTSC/PAL
DVD-A1 NTSC(Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date)
Regards
Hayden Laboratories (KP)
Worth noting that the Multiregion DVD900, which also features the 2mb buffer is £204 at www.hifibitz.com (http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/Warehouse/details.asp?ProductID=DENDVD900BK) ... but seems to have no component output ... which is, of course, a bit gay.
What funky display are you connecting up via component?
Read a review of the Denon 2900 - oh tis lovely. My heart says yes pleez, the wife, the rolling pin and the bank manager all say not on your nelly. Ah well. :nuts:
Originally posted by Gizmo
What funky display are you connecting up via component?
Read a review of the Denon 2900 - oh tis lovely. My heart says yes pleez, the wife, the rolling pin and the bank manager all say not on your nelly. Ah well. :nuts:
Well, when we move I'm hoping to install a projector ... so we're kinda waiting to see what we have left in the budget then!
:D
Unfortunately mine wasn't in the latest Denon delivery,so I've missed the weekend reviewing it.
I should hopefully get it Monday onwards,when I'll have to book the day off,as I'm on afternoons till 10pm.
Originally posted by sideshowbob
Well, when we move I'm hoping to install a projector ... so we're kinda waiting to see what we have left in the budget then!
:D
No playing spearhead at 12' x 8', :nono:, your lethal enough with that garand.
:D
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Unfortunately mine wasn't in the latest Denon delivery,so I've missed the weekend reviewing it.
I should hopefully get it Monday onwards,when I'll have to book the day off,as I'm on afternoons till 10pm.
Has that got something to do with the 'all change' at Denon (Haydn Labs)?
I think they may announce something within the next couple of weeks?
Originally posted by ljp
Has that got something to do with the 'all change' at Denon (Haydn Labs)?
I think they may announce something within the next couple of weeks?
Don't know,tell me more.I have been told of a speedy delivery and that it is in stock at Denon.
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Don't know,tell me more.I have been told of a speedy delivery and that it is in stock at Denon.
All I will say is that Denon are likely to be looked after by another company in the UK very soon. Which shouldnt suprise anyone that has to deal with Haydn Labs.
Originally posted by ljp
Which shouldnt suprise anyone that has to deal with Haydn Labs.
Meaning?
Haydn Labs let Denon down badly in the UK but not for much longer.
I've got it and the seamless layer change does not work!
Am I missing something,else it's going back?
:oh-hum:
really.. is it still jumping on a layer change... what's the problem Wayne?
this was about the only thing that did work for me when I had a 2800 & mkII.
Originally posted by MartinC
really.. is it still jumping on a layer change... what's the problem Wayne?
this was about the only thing that did work for me when I had a 2800 & mkII.
Yep,it's the same as all my other DVD players,there is a second or two pause while it changes layers.
:oh-hum:
Does it do it on everysingle discs though?
Originally posted by ljp
Does it do it on everysingle discs though?
Yep,they'll all identical.
:oh-hum:
Nemisis,just watched it,
Pearl Harbour,
Madonna,
Predator.
I think you better take it back and have a moan (good luck with Haydn :brickwall )
Originally posted by ljp
I think you better take it back and have a moan (good luck with Haydn :brickwall )
I certainly will!
What's up with Haydn?
dont bother with Haydn Labs.. just get a replacement. they are a complete waste of time.
do a comparison with a Sony or Pioneer at your dealers to see if there is any difference, then get the other (working) model if so.
surprised Denon actually had the feature at this price point... memory is a luxury... perhaps they have skimped on this (2mb/ 4mb?)
Originally posted by MartinC
dont bother with Haydn Labs.. just get a replacement. they are a complete waste of time.
do a comparison with a Sony or Pioneer at your dealers to see if there is any difference, then get the other (working) model if so.
surprised Denon actually had the feature at this price point... memory is a luxury... perhaps they have skimped on this (2mb/ 4mb?)
I bought it from Sevenoaks in Leicester.We'll see how good their customer service is now.
It states on the Denon web site that the older 900 has a "2MB buffer for a seamless layer change",so it should do what is says,never mind any other make or model.
http://www.whatvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=4508
Just out of interest, how did you test it?
Did you go straight to the layer change to see what happened? Presumably you'd have to go back at least a scene to allow any buffering to happen well in advance of the actual layer change.
Originally posted by ac
Just out of interest, how did you test it?
Did you go straight to the layer change to see what happened? Presumably you'd have to go back at least a scene to allow any buffering to happen well in advance of the actual layer change.
I did on most,checking where the layer change was on my E50 first.
I watched Nemisis from begining to end with the same length pause for the layer change.
Ok, just seemed like an obvious thing to check. Not even sure if it would be a factor anyway. Certainly sound like it's not working though. :(
Really does seem a simple 'problem' that should have really been ironed out by now for all manufacturers. The thing that bugs me more is the ridiculous points in which some layer changes take place. I guess positioning can vary depending on disc content so in some cases it can't be avoided, but I swear it's not something they think about when producing discs.
The 2800 MKII has a 4MB buffer,if that makes any difference.
http://www.audiolab.com/for_sale/MoreInfo.asp?ItemID=598
Originally posted by ac
Ok, just seemed like an obvious thing to check. Not even sure if it would be a factor anyway. Certainly sound like it's not working though. :(
Really does seem a simple 'problem' that should have really been ironed out by now for all manufacturers. The thing that bugs me more is the ridiculous points in which some layer changes take place. I guess positioning can vary depending on disc content so in some cases it can't be avoided, but I swear it's not something they think about when producing discs.
It can actually be done without a buffer,it's just that doing this falls outside the DVD spec.
"Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam"
See here > &threadid=138425
Just reading back at Grandmasters post it would seem you'd only need to back up a few seconds from the layer change, even for a larger buffer, to ensure the buffer was full and had sufficient data to skip the short pause.
Originally posted by Grandmaster
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
I'm sure a bit of careful planning can put the layer change at the end of a scene, during a fade-out or something, so that it becomes less noticeable. Rather than slap bang in the middle of the busiest, loudest action scene in the movie where it will cause the most distraction when a more convenient point would have been a few seconds earlier/later.
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Yep,it's the same as all my other DVD players,there is a second or two pause while it changes layers.
:oh-hum: Well, you were warned.. :brickwall
Originally posted by Bapapapa
Well, you were warned.. :brickwall
By who?
I've took it back to Sevenoaks who gave me a full refund.
He rang up Denon as well and spoke to an engineer,he said there will be a slight pause on all players no matter how big the buffer is,unlike what Denon were claiming.
By who?
Me. :razz:
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
He rang up Denon as well and spoke to an engineer,he said there will be a slight pause on all players no matter how big the buffer is,unlike what Denon were claiming.
Typical Haydn Labs answer. There is no pause on any disc that I have no matter where the layer change occurs on my Denon A1 player.
:cuckoo:
being fair, the more expensive denons with 4mb upwards, do have a completely invisible layer change.
perhthere can't be much margin on a £79 player for example.
above £300 there is still probably a chance to do this though, denon 2900 etc.
2mb buffer should work but based on Denon's track record, probably the software was only checked with R1 discs... 4mb buffer players work fine though.
Originally posted by MartinC
4mb buffer players work fine though.
Is that guaranteed?
it was about the only thing that did work properly on the 2800 & mkII.
a 2900 should be similar if it has 4mb cache.
The X-Box has a seamless layer change.
I've just had a reply from Philips which says that all Philips DVD players show no layer change.
Can anyone with a Philips DVD player confirm this please?
no thats not true.
same manufacturers are better than others, but its still not seamless without memory.
SB DVDs already utilise a seamless layer change, it makes me wonder why all DVDs don't do this.
Looks like they want us to pay for Blue Ray then.
I am impressed with my sisters Cheap Toshiba 230e R2 has no noticable layer change on all the films i watch:) but does on my old 100e :) So who need a denon !
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=4508
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That's great news and a tidy player.
I'll keep that in mind when we move ... as we'll be looking for a new player to go with a PJ.
:thumbs:
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At last, a DVD player with a "massive" 2MB memory buffer!!! :rolleyes:
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It's not the size of the buffer, it's the motion of the picture. :D
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It's gonna need a bit more than 2MB for a pickup dropout considering the high bitrate Video/DTS stream. :D
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OK, so if you were using DTS / Superbit disk ... how long would 2mb last? It's a serious question ... I don't know.
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Originally posted by Way_2_FAT
It's gonna need a bit more than 2MB for a pickup dropout considering the high bitrate Video/DTS stream. :D
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
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Nice analysis there GM. :)
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Originally posted by Grandmaster
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
True but it's still not enough to buffer a laser drop out (from slitghly scatched discs etc...) unless the player has a very fast DVD-ROM drive.
Edit: typo...
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Layer change does not represent lost data, a scratched disk does so there will be a pause regardles with a damaged disk.
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Not quite, while slightly scratched discs may be difficult to read, it's still readable although the laser will take a few tries reading the same sector of the disc over and over again, that's where a larger buffer comes into play.
2 MB Buffer Memory ensures that both picture and sound are played without interruption when the DVD disc shifts from layer 1 to layer 2, or in the event of a pickup dropout.
Some discs (very slight scraches) on my Toshiba for example, skips on certain scenes while my Ricoh combo dvdrom drive with a large 4MB cache plays back all the discs flawlessly...
On my faster Pioneer dvdrom drive with a 2MB cache the discs all stutter slighly (split second pause) although still handles the discs much better than any standalone dvd player I've tried.
Don't get me wrong, Denon do produce quality AV kits and I wouldn't mind getting one... ;)
Edit: can't type... :brickwall
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This "feature" is nothing new at all on DVD players though is it?
Most of the budget chinese OEM players give invisible layer changes...my Compacks DVD5000 certainly does...although it definitely doesn't cater for "pickup droupouts" I don't think; the seamless branching issues being a case in point...
:confused:
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already available for £170 M/R at www.avland.co.uk
Bargain price if the player is as good as it looks....
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does this have prog scan ? if so is it for PAL and NTSC ?
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Doesn't look like it - component out yes, but no mention of PS.
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Brilliant!
It's the only thing I would really fault DVD for.
:clap:
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There was a long thread about this quite a long time ago when soebody was looking for a DVD player with seamless layer changes. I think they found a high end (at the t
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Originally posted by Radiohead
already available for £170 M/R at www.avland.co.uk
Bargain price if the player is as good as it looks....
..........or the Sony DVP-NS730 (http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/dvpns730/index.htm) multiregion for £149-95 which seems like the cut down version of the '930' (minus scart in, SACD and built-in decoder). Unlike the Denon it has progressive scan on the component output. But usually the layer change on Sony players are a bit worse than average, so it's all a bit of a trade-off.
I'm still trying to find out what the '730' is like compared to the '930', but the user interface is the same so I'm hopeful that the component output is the same as on the '930' (which is excellent by all accounts).
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PS on the component output surely.....
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Not quite in the same league, but does anyone know what the buffer size is on the XBOX? I've never noticed a layer change on that so it might be interesting to compare the two.
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I've always wondered why this wasn't done before...can't be the price of memory and I can't see it being a difficult problem to solve, luckily my pioneer aint too bad at layer changes.
Any more players (standalones) that do this?
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Originally posted by Radiohead
PS on the component output surely.....
Not if this German review (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/denondvd700.shtml&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddvd%2B700%2Bdenon%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DISO-8859-1%26sa%3DN%26as_qdr%3Dall) is anything to go by:
"Thus an YUV exit is available, which spends however only Interlaced signals and no progressive Scan signals." (excuse the translation)
Also, worryingly it doesn't offer the option of outputting s-video through the SCART (again, if my translation is accurate)
"The Scartbuchse can spend either RGB or FBAS, not however s-video. Who would like to attach the Player via s-video, must fall back to the s-video-Hosidenbuchse."
Bugger.
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Originally posted by Radiohead
PS on the component output surely.....
Yes that is what I meant............I blame the heat! (corrected, but you were too quick for me. :) )
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Originally posted by FlangeMonkey
This "feature" is nothing new at all on DVD players though is it?
Most of the budget chinese OEM players give invisible layer changes...my Compacks DVD5000 certainly does...although it definitely doesn't cater for "pickup droupouts" I don't think; the seamless branching issues being a case in point...
:confused: That's because budget chinese players essentially use PC DVD-ROM drives, which pratically all come with a few mb of buffer(and if actually used on a PC, Windows buffers quite a bit as well). This will certainly help with pickup dropouts as well. (this use of a dvd-rom drive is also why they tend to have better cd/dvd-r/rw compatibility too).
The seamless branching issue is subtly different. The drive buffers by simple reading ahead. Hence why it works for layer changes and pickup dropouts. But on branching, the next bit of data needed may or may not be directly ahead. But the buffer doesn't know that, so blindly reads a few mb of essentially usesless data beyond the branch.
However, the playback software in the player does know about the branch, so in principle if it had a more active control over the buffer/disc reading, it could make it not "overshoot" but get on with reading the correct data after the branch, even though the player hasn't quite played up to the pranch yet. It could be that the Denon does perform this kind of more "active" buffer control, or they could just be playing up a feature budget players have had for a couple of years:D.
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Originally posted by cjb110
Any more players (standalones) that do this?
The Denon DVD900 also has this additional memory. I'm sure you'll probably find that other Denon players will have too. Lets hope other manufacturers follow suit.
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.
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Originally posted by rwniel
(corrected, but you were too quick for me. :) )
It's a common complaint, where Radiohead is concerned. Don't worry about it. ;):D
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Mrs SSB, on the other hand, keeps coming back for more.
Go figure.
:D
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Touche ... ginge.
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I have had a Denon A1 for a year now and I have never noticed a layer change in any film!!
Their customer service sucks in the UK but they make a decent product!
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There was another thread about layer changes on here, I will again repeat what I posted there:
Superbit dvd do not (or at least on my player Pioneer 656a) have a noticeable layer change. They even claim this in the leaflet in the box. All dvd should be manufactured this way.
Does anyone actually know how superbits do not suffer this.
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I think they are simply extremely well positioned and use the extra space on the dvd-18 disc to allow more sensible placement.
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But ain't "DVD-18" just dual layer on BOTH sides of the disc? :nuts:
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Yes ... a DVD 9 is single sided dual layer, DVD 18 is double sided dual layer
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I have to say, I haven't noticed any significant layer change delay on my Tosh 330.. Or am I just too slow-witted to spot it? :D
Andy
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Does anyone know where the Denon D-700 Silver one is in stock anywhere?
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http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/dvd700/index.htm
??
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Originally posted by Radiohead
http://www.avland.co.uk/denon/dvd700/index.htm
??
None in Silver for weeks,I've just rang them up.Black are out.They've got Gold one's.
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Bum - quite fancied one
Have you tried www.homecinemaheaven.com ?
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Originally posted by sideshowbob
"The Scartbuchse can spend either RGB or FBAS, not however s-video. Who would like to attach the Player via s-video, must fall back to the s-video-Hosidenbuchse."
Bugger.
Why is this a problem? An s-video (4 pin din) connection should give a better picture than a SCART carrrying s-video.
Or am I missing the point completely?
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Originally posted by Radiohead
Bum - quite fancied one
Have you tried www.homecinemaheaven.com ?
Ordered it from my Leicester Hi-Fi store,£199.They're ordering it from Denon themselves,who have stock.
:clap:
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Nice one - post back when you get it to let me know what it's like.
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Originally posted by lovegroova
Why is this a problem? An s-video (4 pin din) connection should give a better picture than a SCART carrrying s-video.
Or am I missing the point completely?
I guess it's the flexibility / connectivity thing. Some TVs will only have the s-video socket on the front AV panel, whereas the rear SCART (s) will be s-video compatible. So, my preference would generally be for a machine which can output s-video through SCART as well as the s-video socket. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't, just inconvient for some I'd guess.
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Originally posted by Radiohead
Nice one - post back when you get it to let me know what it's like.
OK.
I should of said it was R2 from my local Sevenoaks.Is there one near you?
I can record on my Panasonic E50 DVD and watch a DVD movie,if I want,as well then :) .
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Originally posted by sideshowbob
I guess it's the flexibility / connectivity thing. Some TVs will only have the s-video socket on the front AV panel, whereas the rear SCART (s) will be s-video compatible. So, my preference would generally be for a machine which can output s-video through SCART as well as the s-video socket. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't, just inconvient for some I'd guess.
surely you can just use an s-video to scart cable ? s-vid at the dvd end/scart at the TV end ? IXOS make them.
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You're right of course. But that's an added (and unnecessary) expense if you're used to outputting s-video through the SCART. ;)
I'm not saying it's a fatal flaw, but I do think that in some cases it might be a limiting factor or annoyance for people. Like you've pointed out, it can easily be overcome. But, given the inclusion of a 2mb buffer (where others don't), I'm still somewhat surprised that they don't allow for s-video output via the SCART.
:)
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With regard to the layer change I've never understood why some third party manufacturer doesn't build a series of memory buffer plug in devices.
If you're watching purely through the telly a simple box that plugs in between the dvd scart out and the scart lead going to the telly would do the job.
I'm sure other solutions couldn't be that hard to design for systems using seperate amplification.
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them
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Originally posted by James45
With regard to the layer change I've never understood why some third party manufacturer doesn't build a series of memory buffer plug in devices.
If you're watching purely through the telly a simple box that plugs in between the dvd scart out and the scart lead going to the telly would do the job.
I'm sure other solutions couldn't be that hard to design for systems using seperate amplification.
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them
If you have an external box how are you going to stop video and audio going out of sync?
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Originally posted by Dave Metcalf
Not quite in the same league, but does anyone know what the buffer size is on the XBOX? I've never noticed a layer change on that so it might be interesting to compare the two.
64MB in theory, I assume it just uses the main console memory rather than having a seperate buffer or fixed buffer area.
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It's pretty standard for dvd drives (very likely to include the xbox) to have a memory buffer/cache, the xbox is likely to use the main system memory to buffer data constantly, as games will probably stutter/pause badly without it...
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Originally posted by Mr Nice
That's because budget chinese players essentially use PC DVD-ROM drives, which pratically all come with a few mb of buffer(and if actually used on a PC, Windows buffers quite a bit as well). This will certainly help with pickup dropouts as well. (this use of a dvd-rom drive is also why they tend to have better cd/dvd-r/rw compatibility too).
Most generic dvd rom drives as fitted to some of the cheap dvd players don't have cache in megabytes its more like 128k-512k of cache which isn't enough to buffer the layer change on its own however these drives have upto 12x dvd mechanisms (mostly in the region of 5-8x though) hence the reason picture search is often better on these players too.
I see now though that chinese decks are moving away from pc drives and ide interfaces but instead having custom lower cost interfaces and much more basic loaders. So if anything the japs seem to be moving away from layer change pauses and the chinese players are going to reintroduce it. Some of the newer dvd chipsets integrate dvd loader logic onboard so it won't be long before chinese dvd players are little more than a laser, motor and lsi chip. In fact cd walkmans with dvd functionality for £20 or so surely aren't that far off.
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Originally posted by ljp
If you have an external box how are you going to stop video and audio going out of sync?
Hey design your own money maker! :D it was just an idea, but as I said if you were watching just through the tv the audio and video signals are both past through the scart so that wouldn't matter.
If you wanted to use an external amp both video and audio signals could be fed to the same external box and then outputed to both the display and amp and kept in synch within the box. simple idea and it would sell by the bucket load. anyone want to develop it for me? The ideas up for sale cheap.:wave:
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Originally posted by James45
If you priced it at around the £50 mark... everyone would be buying them I certainly wouldn't - big fuss over nothing, imo..
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
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Originally posted by Bapapapa
I certainly wouldn't - big fuss over nothing, imo..
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
The 900 perhaps.
It'd better work or it'll go back.
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i think all denon players have had the memory buffer in for a while, meridian don't seem to have a layer change either but their players cost thousands!!
I would certainly pay £50 to avoid being lifted out the movie experience by layer change which can be extremely jarring at times!
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I mailed Denon to get a final answer (which we already knew) on the progressive output ...
Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon products.
The Denon DVD-700 does not output a Pure Progressive signal, the signal from the Component video output would be classed as an Interlaced signal.
The following players can playback Pure Progressive :
DVD-2800II NTSC (Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date )
DVD-2900NTSC/PAL
DVD-A1 NTSC(Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date)
Regards
Hayden Laboratories (KP)
Worth noting that the Multiregion DVD900, which also features the 2mb buffer is £204 at www.hifibitz.com (http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/Warehouse/details.asp?ProductID=DENDVD900BK) ... but seems to have no component output ... which is, of course, a bit gay.
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...
ps - the DVD900 is also available in GoLd.
:gag:
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Originally posted by Bapapapa
Anyway...
Wasn't there an older Denon player (last year?) that had a much heralded buffer memory built in to eliminate layer change, but sort of, er, didn't work 100%...? :nuts:
Can't believe Denon have stuck only one SCART on this new one as well - bit tight of them.. :nono:
You mean the DVD A1 , it did work so I guess you dont mean that one(?) - they only have one scart as they would prefer you to use s-video or component to get a better picture.
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Originally posted by sideshowbob
I mailed Denon to get a final answer (which we already knew) on the progressive output ...
Dear Sir
Thank you for your e-mail regarding Denon products.
The Denon DVD-700 does not output a Pure Progressive signal, the signal from the Component video output would be classed as an Interlaced signal.
The following players can playback Pure Progressive :
DVD-2800II NTSC (Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date )
DVD-2900NTSC/PAL
DVD-A1 NTSC(Upgrade for PAL will available from your dealer at a later date)
Regards
Hayden Laboratories (KP)
Worth noting that the Multiregion DVD900, which also features the 2mb buffer is £204 at www.hifibitz.com (http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/Warehouse/details.asp?ProductID=DENDVD900BK) ... but seems to have no component output ... which is, of course, a bit gay.
What funky display are you connecting up via component?
Read a review of the Denon 2900 - oh tis lovely. My heart says yes pleez, the wife, the rolling pin and the bank manager all say not on your nelly. Ah well. :nuts:
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Originally posted by Gizmo
What funky display are you connecting up via component?
Read a review of the Denon 2900 - oh tis lovely. My heart says yes pleez, the wife, the rolling pin and the bank manager all say not on your nelly. Ah well. :nuts:
Well, when we move I'm hoping to install a projector ... so we're kinda waiting to see what we have left in the budget then!
:D
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Unfortunately mine wasn't in the latest Denon delivery,so I've missed the weekend reviewing it.
I should hopefully get it Monday onwards,when I'll have to book the day off,as I'm on afternoons till 10pm.
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Originally posted by sideshowbob
Well, when we move I'm hoping to install a projector ... so we're kinda waiting to see what we have left in the budget then!
:D
No playing spearhead at 12' x 8', :nono:, your lethal enough with that garand.
:D
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Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Unfortunately mine wasn't in the latest Denon delivery,so I've missed the weekend reviewing it.
I should hopefully get it Monday onwards,when I'll have to book the day off,as I'm on afternoons till 10pm.
Has that got something to do with the 'all change' at Denon (Haydn Labs)?
I think they may announce something within the next couple of weeks?
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Originally posted by ljp
Has that got something to do with the 'all change' at Denon (Haydn Labs)?
I think they may announce something within the next couple of weeks?
Don't know,tell me more.I have been told of a speedy delivery and that it is in stock at Denon.
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Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Don't know,tell me more.I have been told of a speedy delivery and that it is in stock at Denon.
All I will say is that Denon are likely to be looked after by another company in the UK very soon. Which shouldnt suprise anyone that has to deal with Haydn Labs.
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Originally posted by ljp
Which shouldnt suprise anyone that has to deal with Haydn Labs.
Meaning?
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Haydn Labs let Denon down badly in the UK but not for much longer.
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I've got it and the seamless layer change does not work!
Am I missing something,else it's going back?
:oh-hum:
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really.. is it still jumping on a layer change... what's the problem Wayne?
this was about the only thing that did work for me when I had a 2800 & mkII.
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Originally posted by MartinC
really.. is it still jumping on a layer change... what's the problem Wayne?
this was about the only thing that did work for me when I had a 2800 & mkII.
Yep,it's the same as all my other DVD players,there is a second or two pause while it changes layers.
:oh-hum:
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Does it do it on everysingle discs though?
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Originally posted by ljp
Does it do it on everysingle discs though?
Yep,they'll all identical.
:oh-hum:
Nemisis,just watched it,
Pearl Harbour,
Madonna,
Predator.
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I think you better take it back and have a moan (good luck with Haydn :brickwall )
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Originally posted by ljp
I think you better take it back and have a moan (good luck with Haydn :brickwall )
I certainly will!
What's up with Haydn?
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dont bother with Haydn Labs.. just get a replacement. they are a complete waste of time.
do a comparison with a Sony or Pioneer at your dealers to see if there is any difference, then get the other (working) model if so.
surprised Denon actually had the feature at this price point... memory is a luxury... perhaps they have skimped on this (2mb/ 4mb?)
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Originally posted by MartinC
dont bother with Haydn Labs.. just get a replacement. they are a complete waste of time.
do a comparison with a Sony or Pioneer at your dealers to see if there is any difference, then get the other (working) model if so.
surprised Denon actually had the feature at this price point... memory is a luxury... perhaps they have skimped on this (2mb/ 4mb?)
I bought it from Sevenoaks in Leicester.We'll see how good their customer service is now.
It states on the Denon web site that the older 900 has a "2MB buffer for a seamless layer change",so it should do what is says,never mind any other make or model.
http://www.whatvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=4508
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Just out of interest, how did you test it?
Did you go straight to the layer change to see what happened? Presumably you'd have to go back at least a scene to allow any buffering to happen well in advance of the actual layer change.
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Originally posted by ac
Just out of interest, how did you test it?
Did you go straight to the layer change to see what happened? Presumably you'd have to go back at least a scene to allow any buffering to happen well in advance of the actual layer change.
I did on most,checking where the layer change was on my E50 first.
I watched Nemisis from begining to end with the same length pause for the layer change.
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Ok, just seemed like an obvious thing to check. Not even sure if it would be a factor anyway. Certainly sound like it's not working though. :(
Really does seem a simple 'problem' that should have really been ironed out by now for all manufacturers. The thing that bugs me more is the ridiculous points in which some layer changes take place. I guess positioning can vary depending on disc content so in some cases it can't be avoided, but I swear it's not something they think about when producing discs.
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The 2800 MKII has a 4MB buffer,if that makes any difference.
http://www.audiolab.com/for_sale/MoreInfo.asp?ItemID=598
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Originally posted by ac
Ok, just seemed like an obvious thing to check. Not even sure if it would be a factor anyway. Certainly sound like it's not working though. :(
Really does seem a simple 'problem' that should have really been ironed out by now for all manufacturers. The thing that bugs me more is the ridiculous points in which some layer changes take place. I guess positioning can vary depending on disc content so in some cases it can't be avoided, but I swear it's not something they think about when producing discs.
It can actually be done without a buffer,it's just that doing this falls outside the DVD spec.
"Panic Room uses a seamless layer change. DVD specifications call for non-seamless layer changes, prompting the DVD player to dump its buffer memory when a layer change occurs. Re-buffering and re-tracking of the second layer is what causes much of the visible pause. If the disc doesn't request that the player dump its buffer, and the disc is authored with this in mind, then the layer change becomes completely invisible.
All of Sony's Superbit discs use seamless layer switches. This makes them technically outside DVD specs (which is why no other studios use them, at least not yet), but no players that I know of have had problems with them.
Adam"
See here > &threadid=138425
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Just reading back at Grandmasters post it would seem you'd only need to back up a few seconds from the layer change, even for a larger buffer, to ensure the buffer was full and had sufficient data to skip the short pause.
Originally posted by Grandmaster
If that's two megabytes, it's plenty. The highest bandwidth DVD can handle is something like 10.04 megabits per second, so divide that 10.04 by 8 to translate that to megabytes. So in theory a 2MB buffer can hold over 1.5 seconds worth of audio-visuals in memory on a totally maxed out disc - more than enough to buffer a layer change.
I'm sure a bit of careful planning can put the layer change at the end of a scene, during a fade-out or something, so that it becomes less noticeable. Rather than slap bang in the middle of the busiest, loudest action scene in the movie where it will cause the most distraction when a more convenient point would have been a few seconds earlier/later.
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Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Yep,it's the same as all my other DVD players,there is a second or two pause while it changes layers.
:oh-hum: Well, you were warned.. :brickwall
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Originally posted by Bapapapa
Well, you were warned.. :brickwall
By who?
I've took it back to Sevenoaks who gave me a full refund.
He rang up Denon as well and spoke to an engineer,he said there will be a slight pause on all players no matter how big the buffer is,unlike what Denon were claiming.
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By who?
Me. :razz:
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Originally posted by Wayne Moule
He rang up Denon as well and spoke to an engineer,he said there will be a slight pause on all players no matter how big the buffer is,unlike what Denon were claiming.
Typical Haydn Labs answer. There is no pause on any disc that I have no matter where the layer change occurs on my Denon A1 player.
:cuckoo:
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being fair, the more expensive denons with 4mb upwards, do have a completely invisible layer change.
perhthere can't be much margin on a £79 player for example.
above £300 there is still probably a chance to do this though, denon 2900 etc.
2mb buffer should work but based on Denon's track record, probably the software was only checked with R1 discs... 4mb buffer players work fine though.
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Originally posted by MartinC
4mb buffer players work fine though.
Is that guaranteed?
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it was about the only thing that did work properly on the 2800 & mkII.
a 2900 should be similar if it has 4mb cache.
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The X-Box has a seamless layer change.
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I've just had a reply from Philips which says that all Philips DVD players show no layer change.
Can anyone with a Philips DVD player confirm this please?
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no thats not true.
same manufacturers are better than others, but its still not seamless without memory.
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SB DVDs already utilise a seamless layer change, it makes me wonder why all DVDs don't do this.
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Looks like they want us to pay for Blue Ray then.
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I am impressed with my sisters Cheap Toshiba 230e R2 has no noticable layer change on all the films i watch:) but does on my old 100e :) So who need a denon !
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