Question:
I have owned (for a few years now) an all in one Pioneer NS-DV55 HC system and, to an extent, been quite happy with it. I am now getting to the stage where I wouldn't mind something fuller sounding, with a bit more range and therefore have decided to start considering separates.
I have seen a Denon 3802 and 2800 available 2nd hand and wonder, for the right price, whether this kit would be a huge upgrade or a worthwhile one in terms of the quality of the kit verus spending the same on newer but lesser specced gear.
Obviously I hope to get the kit comparatively cheaply but would then obviously need to get a speaker/sub combo (that MUST be small and discrete but make the most of the source gear).
Would really just be grateful for opinions from people on the Denon gear and whether it would be worth it and suggestions for some speaker set ups e.g. KEF Eggs, Antony Gallos, etc etc
EDIT - have secured a deal for the Denon gear so now I need to get thinking about speakers/sub - my local Audio-T reckon (in accordance with what they stock :rolleyes: ) that the pecking order is as such: -
1) Monitor Audio (new tiny things they are due to receive but are conventional in design just very small)
2) ALR Jordan - I think they look a bit cheap though
3) B&W
4) Kef Eggs (I think they were referring to MK1's and not 2's)
Now I actually prefer either the B&W or Kef's (to look at) and cost could be a major factor - am I right in thinking that neither package is worth getting the 'own' sub with? Or is the MK2 Kef package much better in this department?
It would b a massive step-up in quality. You're talking about using what was, only a couple of years ago, the finest sub-£1k amp on the market and a very good DVD player as opposed to a fairly average all-in-one with pretty poor speakers.
Partner the Denons with either the KEF, Gallos or B&W VM1's and you'll be in a totally different league in terms of performance. The amp will offer far higher quality discrete amplification, superior effects steering and proper bass management. The DVD player will offer far better video performance and will make a pretty useful CD player as well.
Add in the addiitional flexibilty & connectivity of the Denon kit and it's a no-brainer.
There really is no contest - how much is the Denon kit, out of interest.
RH is right it's the difference between a car and bike.
Also consider the ALR/Jordan Entry S series for discreet speakers.
I used them for a while without a sub and didn't feel as though I was missing out.
I did buy a sub later and appreciated the enhanced sounds but if you want to save costs then it is a possible solution.
Well bob_bob has his kit on sale in the classifieds (no hijacking pls) for £640 but I have offered less.
Would you guys say it would be £600'ish better spent on this rather than new amp/dvd player for the same amount?
Is he prepared to split - as it appears that you're concerned by some issues with the player.
The amp was £850 new, so would be an excellent buy at around £250-300......having said that, you're getting a pretty serious amp and DVD for £600 there.
I think he will split - he has them on e-bay now I think and they are separate so I assume he will. A quick search on the AV Forums tells me a few owners have had problems but provided he can confirm its a'okay I would still go with both as it was well reviewed by the press. I am hoping that my offer, as a one stop buyer, will entice him though :D
I can't see you being anything but hugely impressed by them, as long as you have the funds to buy speakers good enough to do them justice....
Buying the Denon kit actually allows me to get better speakers than I would have to if getting everything new so there is a definite plus to it
Just means that the wife would be allowed to buy more shoes than normal because of it..........:lol:
Bump for sub/speaker opinions now
What's your budget for them?
No fixed budget but want to get the most sound for pound possible - I know Creative Audio do the Mark 2 KEF set for £649 and that B&W's will be £125 a pop (plus the cost of a decent sub), in this respect the KEF's are edging it (also from a wife friendly POV too)
What did you have in mind?
If you want to keep under £1k then the Eggs are the obvious choice and the Mk2 sub is supposed to be a very worthwhile improvement over the Mk1.
If you want to spend over £1k then the B&W's are worth a look, as are the Gallo Micros (although I think they're a little over-priced), and the ALR's Roy mentions. The sub supplied with the VM1 package is pretty average - I'd buy them without and get a decent sub instead.
I haven't seen the Monitor Audios.
KEF's are definitely taking the lead at the price mentioned for the mark 2 set. Bearing in mind what I am coming from I think that this may be the best next 'step'.
Has anyone heard the difference between MK1 and MK2 eggs? Saying that the new Monitor Audios that Audio T were expecting do look interesting, real wood veneers etc I like the idea of Gallos (they look lovely) but they seem to be stuck in that niche of wanting to be semi-exclusive (and thus are highly priced for what they are). The day that What Hi-Fi gives anything from Gallo Five stars for performance and value is the day that most 'enthusiasts' would likely go off of them :lol:
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
So I have three black ones going. Can do them for £100 each delivered straight to your door. Another two at £125 plus an MJ Pro sub at £199 brings you in at £750 same price as Mark 2 pack or thereabouts???
You make a good pitch CLH but black would be a no-no both for me and the good lady.
BTW you got a good price on that Sony, couldn't really be passed by at that price - please don't use the stand though :nono:
Originally posted by D J Fryer
BTW you got a good price on that Sony, couldn't really be passed by at that price - please don't use the stand though :nono:
Almost fell over TBH! No stands for me mind!
CLH - what would you say the main differences were between the B&W's and MK2 Kef's, (I see that you have had both)
Well the VM1’s seem a little more rounded and a little more like real speakers. I’m not knocking the Kef’s. They produce a thrilling soundstage with cinema and are excellent with music BUT their sub is not that great. Neither is the B&W’s sub so something like a Quake, Velodyne or MJ Pro needs to be partnered in. The MJ Pro 50 is a steal at £199 IIRC.
The VM1’s are of course large. BUT crucially they come with their own stands and even their own wall brackets. They are also marginally thinner than the eggs. My wife always said she disliked the way the eggs were “giving her the eye.”
The VM1’s also appear marginally lighter or perhaps their weight is spread more evenly.
Frankly you can’t go wrong with either, even the Mark 1 eggs would be a huge step up but best to nip upgradeitis in the bud right now.
As for an amp the 3802 will be superb assuming you can pick one up cheaply. Other than that most stores will knock out a 3803 for £650 or so.
Hopefully will be collecting a 3802 and 2800 for £550 from someone on the forums so will probably be a quite large upgrade from an all in one system!
Originally posted by CLH
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
So I have three black ones going. Can do them for £100 each delivered straight to your door.
Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I'm in the market for 3 black VM1s as it happens. I just need to sell my Missions , and if they're still available, i'll take them For £300...
That is exactly what I like about this forum - try posting over at AVForums aswell as CLH has them up there for sale/trade ! You know what they are like for trading rules !
Phayze, no worries. Will drop you an email later. I can even bring them up to Wycombe this week or somethign!"
You should get the ALR/Jordan Entry S's for about £180 for the pair of fronts, £150 for the centre plus whatever you want at the rear (I personally use Tannoy MxR's)
The frequency response of the ALR's is broader than both the KEF's and the VM1's thereby reducing, but not negating, the need for a sub as well.
The ALR's are the most powerful of the three but not by much.
If wife friendliness is an issue then I'd say the VM1's are the furthest away from that, they're not as subtle as the KEF's although they're more sculpted than the ALR's which are bookshelf type speakers.
The fronts are certainly wife friendly as they are very small, the centre is more of a standard size which might not suit?
Dan, could you use your Denon DM30 as rears??
Roy - I know what you say is true but the wife needs to like these things and so far the B&W and the KEF's are the only ones she likes the look of for precisely the reason that they do not look like normal bookshelf speakers (and to a large extent that is also important to me). If I picked some £100 rears for the Jordan set up that would still take them beyond the price of mark 2 KEF's (when a sub is added) so would it be worth the extra in my sound-for-pound'ometer?
Originally posted by CLH
Dan, could you use your Denon DM30 as rears??
That is a possibility but my parrott needs those to listen to Radio 2 all day !
Originally posted by D J Fryer
Roy - I know what you say is true but the wife needs to like these things and so far the B&W and the KEF's are the only ones she likes the look of for precisely the reason that they do not look like normal bookshelf speakers (and to a large extent that is also important to me). If I picked some £100 rears for the Jordan set up that would still take them beyond the price of mark 2 KEF's (when a sub is added) so would it be worth the extra in my sound-for-pound'ometer?
Ah right, don't get me wrong I'm not pimping the ALR's :D but people tend only to look at Kef's and B&W and forget there are other good speakers out there..
The wife factor is powerful and probably more important than the increased power and sensitivity of the ALR's, there's nothing like the verbal your missus can give you counterbalance a technical decision :D
I would probably say yes it is worth the extra but when you factor in the missus, probably not!
Sounds like they are definitely worth a listen but more and more I am being drawn to the KEF's because not only does the missus like them but I think they are my favourite (purely in the looks and package department) - and at the moment they are high on the pound-o'meter because of Creative Audio.
Which means, CLH, that I may bag those stands you have if you can hold onto them for a while?
Dan you're more than welcome, and of course I will deliver for free!
Originally posted by CLH
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
:lol:
:wave:
Originally posted by Radiohead
:lol:
:wave:
Don't even get me started. At least B&B have offered me a discount:)
She 'made' you buy a new telly did she?
:lol:
Originally posted by Radiohead
She 'made' you buy a new telly did she?
:lol:
Well 'twas a bargain and when I told her it was £650 in Argos she made me do it!
Originally posted by CLH
Don't even get me started. At least B&B have offered me a discount:)
I remember the days we used to have a B&B Hi-fi in Wycombe, bought my first lot of separates there - nice people
I have seen a Denon 3802 and 2800 available 2nd hand and wonder, for the right price, whether this kit would be a huge upgrade or a worthwhile one in terms of the quality of the kit verus spending the same on newer but lesser specced gear.
Obviously I hope to get the kit comparatively cheaply but would then obviously need to get a speaker/sub combo (that MUST be small and discrete but make the most of the source gear).
Would really just be grateful for opinions from people on the Denon gear and whether it would be worth it and suggestions for some speaker set ups e.g. KEF Eggs, Antony Gallos, etc etc
EDIT - have secured a deal for the Denon gear so now I need to get thinking about speakers/sub - my local Audio-T reckon (in accordance with what they stock :rolleyes: ) that the pecking order is as such: -
1) Monitor Audio (new tiny things they are due to receive but are conventional in design just very small)
2) ALR Jordan - I think they look a bit cheap though
3) B&W
4) Kef Eggs (I think they were referring to MK1's and not 2's)
Now I actually prefer either the B&W or Kef's (to look at) and cost could be a major factor - am I right in thinking that neither package is worth getting the 'own' sub with? Or is the MK2 Kef package much better in this department?
Answers:
It would b a massive step-up in quality. You're talking about using what was, only a couple of years ago, the finest sub-£1k amp on the market and a very good DVD player as opposed to a fairly average all-in-one with pretty poor speakers.
Partner the Denons with either the KEF, Gallos or B&W VM1's and you'll be in a totally different league in terms of performance. The amp will offer far higher quality discrete amplification, superior effects steering and proper bass management. The DVD player will offer far better video performance and will make a pretty useful CD player as well.
Add in the addiitional flexibilty & connectivity of the Denon kit and it's a no-brainer.
There really is no contest - how much is the Denon kit, out of interest.
Answers:
RH is right it's the difference between a car and bike.
Also consider the ALR/Jordan Entry S series for discreet speakers.
I used them for a while without a sub and didn't feel as though I was missing out.
I did buy a sub later and appreciated the enhanced sounds but if you want to save costs then it is a possible solution.
Answers:
Well bob_bob has his kit on sale in the classifieds (no hijacking pls) for £640 but I have offered less.
Would you guys say it would be £600'ish better spent on this rather than new amp/dvd player for the same amount?
Answers:
Is he prepared to split - as it appears that you're concerned by some issues with the player.
The amp was £850 new, so would be an excellent buy at around £250-300......having said that, you're getting a pretty serious amp and DVD for £600 there.
Answers:
I think he will split - he has them on e-bay now I think and they are separate so I assume he will. A quick search on the AV Forums tells me a few owners have had problems but provided he can confirm its a'okay I would still go with both as it was well reviewed by the press. I am hoping that my offer, as a one stop buyer, will entice him though :D
Answers:
I can't see you being anything but hugely impressed by them, as long as you have the funds to buy speakers good enough to do them justice....
Answers:
Buying the Denon kit actually allows me to get better speakers than I would have to if getting everything new so there is a definite plus to it
Just means that the wife would be allowed to buy more shoes than normal because of it..........:lol:
Answers:
Bump for sub/speaker opinions now
Answers:
What's your budget for them?
Answers:
No fixed budget but want to get the most sound for pound possible - I know Creative Audio do the Mark 2 KEF set for £649 and that B&W's will be £125 a pop (plus the cost of a decent sub), in this respect the KEF's are edging it (also from a wife friendly POV too)
What did you have in mind?
Answers:
If you want to keep under £1k then the Eggs are the obvious choice and the Mk2 sub is supposed to be a very worthwhile improvement over the Mk1.
If you want to spend over £1k then the B&W's are worth a look, as are the Gallo Micros (although I think they're a little over-priced), and the ALR's Roy mentions. The sub supplied with the VM1 package is pretty average - I'd buy them without and get a decent sub instead.
I haven't seen the Monitor Audios.
Answers:
KEF's are definitely taking the lead at the price mentioned for the mark 2 set. Bearing in mind what I am coming from I think that this may be the best next 'step'.
Has anyone heard the difference between MK1 and MK2 eggs? Saying that the new Monitor Audios that Audio T were expecting do look interesting, real wood veneers etc I like the idea of Gallos (they look lovely) but they seem to be stuck in that niche of wanting to be semi-exclusive (and thus are highly priced for what they are). The day that What Hi-Fi gives anything from Gallo Five stars for performance and value is the day that most 'enthusiasts' would likely go off of them :lol:
Answers:
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
So I have three black ones going. Can do them for £100 each delivered straight to your door. Another two at £125 plus an MJ Pro sub at £199 brings you in at £750 same price as Mark 2 pack or thereabouts???
Answers:
You make a good pitch CLH but black would be a no-no both for me and the good lady.
BTW you got a good price on that Sony, couldn't really be passed by at that price - please don't use the stand though :nono:
Answers:
Originally posted by D J Fryer
BTW you got a good price on that Sony, couldn't really be passed by at that price - please don't use the stand though :nono:
Almost fell over TBH! No stands for me mind!
Answers:
CLH - what would you say the main differences were between the B&W's and MK2 Kef's, (I see that you have had both)
Answers:
Well the VM1’s seem a little more rounded and a little more like real speakers. I’m not knocking the Kef’s. They produce a thrilling soundstage with cinema and are excellent with music BUT their sub is not that great. Neither is the B&W’s sub so something like a Quake, Velodyne or MJ Pro needs to be partnered in. The MJ Pro 50 is a steal at £199 IIRC.
The VM1’s are of course large. BUT crucially they come with their own stands and even their own wall brackets. They are also marginally thinner than the eggs. My wife always said she disliked the way the eggs were “giving her the eye.”
The VM1’s also appear marginally lighter or perhaps their weight is spread more evenly.
Frankly you can’t go wrong with either, even the Mark 1 eggs would be a huge step up but best to nip upgradeitis in the bud right now.
As for an amp the 3802 will be superb assuming you can pick one up cheaply. Other than that most stores will knock out a 3803 for £650 or so.
Answers:
Hopefully will be collecting a 3802 and 2800 for £550 from someone on the forums so will probably be a quite large upgrade from an all in one system!
Answers:
Originally posted by CLH
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
So I have three black ones going. Can do them for £100 each delivered straight to your door.
Sorry to hi-jack your thread, but I'm in the market for 3 black VM1s as it happens. I just need to sell my Missions , and if they're still available, i'll take them For £300...
Answers:
That is exactly what I like about this forum - try posting over at AVForums aswell as CLH has them up there for sale/trade ! You know what they are like for trading rules !
Answers:
Phayze, no worries. Will drop you an email later. I can even bring them up to Wycombe this week or somethign!"
Answers:
You should get the ALR/Jordan Entry S's for about £180 for the pair of fronts, £150 for the centre plus whatever you want at the rear (I personally use Tannoy MxR's)
The frequency response of the ALR's is broader than both the KEF's and the VM1's thereby reducing, but not negating, the need for a sub as well.
The ALR's are the most powerful of the three but not by much.
If wife friendliness is an issue then I'd say the VM1's are the furthest away from that, they're not as subtle as the KEF's although they're more sculpted than the ALR's which are bookshelf type speakers.
The fronts are certainly wife friendly as they are very small, the centre is more of a standard size which might not suit?
Answers:
Dan, could you use your Denon DM30 as rears??
Answers:
Roy - I know what you say is true but the wife needs to like these things and so far the B&W and the KEF's are the only ones she likes the look of for precisely the reason that they do not look like normal bookshelf speakers (and to a large extent that is also important to me). If I picked some £100 rears for the Jordan set up that would still take them beyond the price of mark 2 KEF's (when a sub is added) so would it be worth the extra in my sound-for-pound'ometer?
Answers:
Originally posted by CLH
Dan, could you use your Denon DM30 as rears??
That is a possibility but my parrott needs those to listen to Radio 2 all day !
Answers:
Originally posted by D J Fryer
Roy - I know what you say is true but the wife needs to like these things and so far the B&W and the KEF's are the only ones she likes the look of for precisely the reason that they do not look like normal bookshelf speakers (and to a large extent that is also important to me). If I picked some £100 rears for the Jordan set up that would still take them beyond the price of mark 2 KEF's (when a sub is added) so would it be worth the extra in my sound-for-pound'ometer?
Ah right, don't get me wrong I'm not pimping the ALR's :D but people tend only to look at Kef's and B&W and forget there are other good speakers out there..
The wife factor is powerful and probably more important than the increased power and sensitivity of the ALR's, there's nothing like the verbal your missus can give you counterbalance a technical decision :D
I would probably say yes it is worth the extra but when you factor in the missus, probably not!
Answers:
Sounds like they are definitely worth a listen but more and more I am being drawn to the KEF's because not only does the missus like them but I think they are my favourite (purely in the looks and package department) - and at the moment they are high on the pound-o'meter because of Creative Audio.
Which means, CLH, that I may bag those stands you have if you can hold onto them for a while?
Answers:
Dan you're more than welcome, and of course I will deliver for free!
Answers:
Originally posted by CLH
This'll make RH laugh. Wife made me buy a bargain Sony TV in SILVER. So now I need three SILVER VM1's.
:lol:
:wave:
Answers:
Originally posted by Radiohead
:lol:
:wave:
Don't even get me started. At least B&B have offered me a discount:)
Answers:
She 'made' you buy a new telly did she?
:lol:
Answers:
Originally posted by Radiohead
She 'made' you buy a new telly did she?
:lol:
Well 'twas a bargain and when I told her it was £650 in Argos she made me do it!
Answers:
Originally posted by CLH
Don't even get me started. At least B&B have offered me a discount:)
I remember the days we used to have a B&B Hi-fi in Wycombe, bought my first lot of separates there - nice people
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