Question:
I was just wondering, is it actually illegal to use region hacks on dvd players, or is it just frowned upon?
I have a hack for my dvd player, but I don't want to put it on there unless it is perfectly legal.
Let me know.
Oh and sorry if this is in the wrong forum!
Killer
.........
Errrrmm, r u kidding - believe me me when I say that you are not going to go to prison - go ahead and do it!! It is illegal for companies to sell you Multiregion DVD players, but if you can make them multiregion afterwards then it is fine - it is the DVD manufacterers who give out the hacks in the first place!!!
Yeah, technically regional coding is illegal, as it's an infringement of free trade laws.
Originally posted by w_n_s
It is illegal for companies to sell you Multiregion DVD players,
Erm. Absolutely and completely wrong I think. The reason DVD players are manufactured to be region locked is to do with the licensing of the DVD standard, which basically says if you make a player to play the standard, it must be region locked. In order to make a DVD player the manufacturer must sign up to this licensing agreement (intellectual property rights, etc.) Note that this is manufacturing, not selling.
A shop selling a dvd player has not signed anything commiting to only selling region locked machines (at least not if the owner has any sense). So if the retailer wants to unlock the player using whatever means they feel like, they can! (And then they can charge a premium for the product too) Justin sold me my region free pioneer (http://www.homecinemaheaven.com/ and probably the advertising banner at the top of the screen) and that is a legititmate business.
Aside from that, manufacturers really want to make their product as attractive as possible to the consumer, so they can sell more. This is why so many players (especially at the budget end of the spectrum) have remote hacks to unlock them. The manufacturers don't really want the machine to be locked to a single region - that is all down to the big movie studios, who own the DVD format, and license it out.
In summary, using a region free hack is perfectly legal.
The whole region thing is completely ill thought out anyway.
Whats to stop a person in the UK buying an America player? :brickwall
Be interesting to see what occurs with blu-ray!
> It is NOT illegal to sell or own or use a multiregion (or hackable) player.
> It is NOT illegal to hack a hackable player
> It IS an infringement of licencing (a civil offence) to manufacture a DVD player which is not region coded.
> It is NOT illegal to own or use imported DVDs unless they are classified as 'obscene'
> It is NOT illegal to import DVDs unless they are classified as 'obscene'
> It IS an offence to SELL or distribute uncertified video material
> It IS a civil offence to sell or distribute copyright material 'out of territory'.
The one and only non-legal thing about the whole multi region DVD thing, is if you were to sell a DVD in this country which wasn't R2 - and that is only because that DVD wouldn't carry a BBFC rating.
It's perfectly legal to buy R1 or whatever from an overseas company for your own use. It's totally legal to watch it. It's legal to own a multi-region machine. It's legal to hack your machine (It's yours - you can do whatever you want with it - even convert it into a 50's style cocktail cabinet)
I must admit - I've not come across anyone before who was worried about whether or not hacking was legal - but if you are worried - don't be. It's all 100% legal.:thumbs:
Hey - I bet Tony Blair and the Queen have a stash of R1 DVD's
I was under the impression that if a player was "hacked" or "chipped" then the manufacturer's warranty was void. But surely this wouldn't apply if the retailer sold the player as multi region "out of the box", "Fit for the purpose for which it was intended" and all of that ?
AFAIK If the player is sold as R2 only then you chip it yourself then the warranty is void.
If you enter a remote hack to make it multiregion. You can normally make it back to region 2 only anyway. As you haven't taken the top off then the warranty should be ok.
The only time the manufacturer's warranty is voided is by any internal modifications made by another company (or yourself) - i.e. lifting the lid on the player. Simply entering a code on your remote allows you to alter the software that tells your player what to do (called "firmware" - it's usually a 512 KB or 1 MB file usually stored on a little chip called an EEPROM) - it is within the player's capability to playback discs from any region, and the fact you accessed that facility by tapping in a few numbers on a remote does not breach the manufacturer's warranty in any way, shape or form :)
However, changing the firmware like my Encore 450 to make it think it is a Sampo doesn't it? Clayts. The player is old now anyway so it doesn't matter.
BTW Clayts as you are here, have you heard any sampos having problems with loading some DVD R's? It can take a few goes for it to load some properly.
Originally posted by clayts
it's usually a 512 KB or 1 MB file usually stored on a little chip called an EEPROM)
How do you know what size it is generally then?
By EEPROMS I assume you mean flash memory (like a pc BIOS)? Old style EEPROMS would be too slow now a days wouldnt they (IC's like the 27c256, 27c512 haven't been used for years by many people!) also no one stocks them anymore!
Originally posted by clayts
tapping in a few numbers on a remote does not breach the manufacturer's warranty in any way, shape or form :)
Sorry if this "muddies the waters" but I bought one of those budget Logix 3300Ds a few weeks ago which came with the instructions for how to hack for multi region. Prior to delivery I e-mailed their support facility (a 3rd party company apparently) and asked about region changes affecting warranties etc. Their reply was to the effect that remote control hacking did affect the warranty. I couldn't be bothered to go back to them and say "Well the retailer sent specific instructions etc..." So the upshot is I'm still confused !!:confused:
Well we've got it clear that it isn't illegal. About it affecting warranties - well lifting the lid to fit new components obviously will affect the warranty. Remote hacking shouldn't though - I mean - how will they know, even if it was sent back for repair. The only difference remote hacking makes is that the player will then play any region. Except for putting in a R1 disc (Or whatever region you fancy) and finding that it plays, there is no change to the player whatsoever.
I would remote hack away and enjoy.
Indeed. After all, you could have hit the relevant keys on the remote entirely by accident. If they design the software such that you can do this, they have absolutely NO grounds for refusing a warranty claim.
Originally posted by nwgarratt
BTW Clayts as you are here, have you heard any sampos having problems with loading some DVD R's? It can take a few goes for it to load some properly.
Older Sampo's may well struggle with DVD-R as the PC form-factor DVD-ROM drives used in them (especially the Afreey DVD-ROM drive, DP2T, used in the DV450) are actually second generation drives, and technically not compliant with the recordable format. The simplest way round it is to bag a Liteon or similar budget DVD drive, and replace the original loader - dead easy to do, and no more than a ten minute job - see here (http://www.area450.com/thesampozone/articles/driveswapindex.htm) and follow the instructions for the DVE620 drive swap).
Incidentally - revamp that DV450 completely by installing the totally underground OFFA firmware - region-free, VCR friendly, CGMS/A removed and lots of new playback features, including raw .mpg (no need to convert to VCD), .vob, .jpg, .mp3. This is firmware sucked off the superb Sampo DVE631CF, the first player released with a Compact Flash reader. Which means the player had not one, but two IDE devices (the other being the DVD-ROM). People are now hard-wiring hard disc drives into their Sampo players for 120GB media jukebox experiences. Bonkers ! Check it out here (http://www.area450.com/firmware/offa.htm). Now that is warranty voiding !!!
Originally posted by ljp
How do you know what size it is generally then?
By EEPROMS I assume you mean flash memory (like a pc BIOS)? Old style EEPROMS would be too slow now a days wouldnt they (IC's like the 27c256, 27c512 haven't been used for years by many people!) also no one stocks them anymore!
Actually, Sampo have been using 29F040s for the last four years, in both DIP and PLCC style. These will always be 512kB firmware files. Sampo always used socketted EEPROMs too, which meant they could be popped out, wired up to a programmer and the firmware sucked off them. Then people would have fun and games altering it.
However, their latest manufacturing processes see the use of larger 1MB EEPROMs, A29800TMs, which are soldered in. And man, they are impossible to do anything with (actually, my US and Australian co-editors at Area 450 managed it between them, but the firmware we got was a bizarre mix of odd and even bytes, completely impossible to encode). They've pretty much got us bang to rights on that one !
Older Sampo's may well struggle with DVD-R as the PC form-factor DVD-ROM drives used in them (especially the Afreey DVD-ROM drive, DP2T, used in the DV450) are actually second generation drives, and technically not compliant with the recordable format. The simplest way round it is to bag a Liteon or similar budget DVD drive, and replace the original loader - dead easy to do, and no more than a ten minute job - see here and follow the instructions for the DVE620 drive swap).
Incidentally - revamp that DV450 completely by installing the totally underground OFFA firmware - region-free, VCR friendly, CGMS/A removed and lots of new playback features, including raw .mpg (no need to convert to VCD), .vob, .jpg, .mp3. This is firmware sucked off the superb Sampo DVE631CF, the first player released with a Compact Flash reader. Which means the player had not one, but two IDE devices (the other being the DVD-ROM). People are now hard-wiring hard disc drives into their Sampo players for 120GB media jukebox experiences. Bonkers ! Check it out here. Now that is warranty voiding !!!
I use the modified May sampo 613CF firmware but not the OFFA one. I actually realised it was DVD+R that was ok but DVD+RW was having problems off getting recognised. I don't have acess to DVD - to try the format out.
Originally posted by clayts
Actually, Sampo have been using 29F040s for the last four years, in both DIP and PLCC style. These will always be 512kB firmware files. Sampo always used socketted EEPROMs too, which meant they could be popped out, wired up to a programmer and the firmware sucked off them. Then people would have fun and games altering it.
However, their latest manufacturing processes see the use of larger 1MB EEPROMs, A29800TMs, which are soldered in. And man, they are impossible to do anything with (actually, my US and Australian co-editors at Area 450 managed it between them, but the firmware we got was a bizarre mix of odd and even bytes, completely impossible to encode). They've pretty much got us bang to rights on that one !
How stupid are they using a socketed EEPROM! Obviously the software is written somewhere else and then added at the last minute (like most other software nowadays!) and Sampo had no idea that individuals would almost certainly open it up and mess!
I should think they stopped using 29f040's because of security and cost (newer components are far cheaper). Old IC's cost us a fortune (work in micro electronics) cuz we only buy small amounts the future is certainly SMT - and you're not going to crack that unless the programmers are really careless (or they let you do it!)
Cheers for the information by the way:)
Originally posted by LV426
Indeed. After all, you could have hit the relevant keys on the remote entirely by accident. If they design the software such that you can do this, they have absolutely NO grounds for refusing a warranty claim.
Absolutely spot on, and that's why it can never be deemed to be tampering with the player, hence the fact it will not void a warranty, despite what some manufacturers or retailers may say to you.
You may find this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/dot_life/2197548.stm) interesting, where Cyberhome openly admit they got into trouble by releasing already-hacked multi-region players into the wild.
Originally posted by ljp
I should think they stopped using 29f040's because of security and cost (newer components are far cheaper).
Yeah, in fact it was because they changed over from ESS chipsets to MediaTek chipsets - cheaper, but better IMHO :)
Sampo never really had much of a problem with the things we did independently, bless 'em, and in actual fact modified the player firmware in their 2003 range released in Taiwan so that it could do at least some of the things we'd achieved underground, such as .mpg and .vob playback : good luck to 'em !
I have a hack for my dvd player, but I don't want to put it on there unless it is perfectly legal.
Let me know.
Oh and sorry if this is in the wrong forum!
Killer
.........
Answers:
Errrrmm, r u kidding - believe me me when I say that you are not going to go to prison - go ahead and do it!! It is illegal for companies to sell you Multiregion DVD players, but if you can make them multiregion afterwards then it is fine - it is the DVD manufacterers who give out the hacks in the first place!!!
Answers:
Yeah, technically regional coding is illegal, as it's an infringement of free trade laws.
Answers:
Originally posted by w_n_s
It is illegal for companies to sell you Multiregion DVD players,
Erm. Absolutely and completely wrong I think. The reason DVD players are manufactured to be region locked is to do with the licensing of the DVD standard, which basically says if you make a player to play the standard, it must be region locked. In order to make a DVD player the manufacturer must sign up to this licensing agreement (intellectual property rights, etc.) Note that this is manufacturing, not selling.
A shop selling a dvd player has not signed anything commiting to only selling region locked machines (at least not if the owner has any sense). So if the retailer wants to unlock the player using whatever means they feel like, they can! (And then they can charge a premium for the product too) Justin sold me my region free pioneer (http://www.homecinemaheaven.com/ and probably the advertising banner at the top of the screen) and that is a legititmate business.
Aside from that, manufacturers really want to make their product as attractive as possible to the consumer, so they can sell more. This is why so many players (especially at the budget end of the spectrum) have remote hacks to unlock them. The manufacturers don't really want the machine to be locked to a single region - that is all down to the big movie studios, who own the DVD format, and license it out.
In summary, using a region free hack is perfectly legal.
Answers:
The whole region thing is completely ill thought out anyway.
Whats to stop a person in the UK buying an America player? :brickwall
Be interesting to see what occurs with blu-ray!
Answers:
> It is NOT illegal to sell or own or use a multiregion (or hackable) player.
> It is NOT illegal to hack a hackable player
> It IS an infringement of licencing (a civil offence) to manufacture a DVD player which is not region coded.
> It is NOT illegal to own or use imported DVDs unless they are classified as 'obscene'
> It is NOT illegal to import DVDs unless they are classified as 'obscene'
> It IS an offence to SELL or distribute uncertified video material
> It IS a civil offence to sell or distribute copyright material 'out of territory'.
Answers:
The one and only non-legal thing about the whole multi region DVD thing, is if you were to sell a DVD in this country which wasn't R2 - and that is only because that DVD wouldn't carry a BBFC rating.
It's perfectly legal to buy R1 or whatever from an overseas company for your own use. It's totally legal to watch it. It's legal to own a multi-region machine. It's legal to hack your machine (It's yours - you can do whatever you want with it - even convert it into a 50's style cocktail cabinet)
I must admit - I've not come across anyone before who was worried about whether or not hacking was legal - but if you are worried - don't be. It's all 100% legal.:thumbs:
Hey - I bet Tony Blair and the Queen have a stash of R1 DVD's
Answers:
I was under the impression that if a player was "hacked" or "chipped" then the manufacturer's warranty was void. But surely this wouldn't apply if the retailer sold the player as multi region "out of the box", "Fit for the purpose for which it was intended" and all of that ?
Answers:
AFAIK If the player is sold as R2 only then you chip it yourself then the warranty is void.
If you enter a remote hack to make it multiregion. You can normally make it back to region 2 only anyway. As you haven't taken the top off then the warranty should be ok.
Answers:
The only time the manufacturer's warranty is voided is by any internal modifications made by another company (or yourself) - i.e. lifting the lid on the player. Simply entering a code on your remote allows you to alter the software that tells your player what to do (called "firmware" - it's usually a 512 KB or 1 MB file usually stored on a little chip called an EEPROM) - it is within the player's capability to playback discs from any region, and the fact you accessed that facility by tapping in a few numbers on a remote does not breach the manufacturer's warranty in any way, shape or form :)
Answers:
However, changing the firmware like my Encore 450 to make it think it is a Sampo doesn't it? Clayts. The player is old now anyway so it doesn't matter.
BTW Clayts as you are here, have you heard any sampos having problems with loading some DVD R's? It can take a few goes for it to load some properly.
Answers:
Originally posted by clayts
it's usually a 512 KB or 1 MB file usually stored on a little chip called an EEPROM)
How do you know what size it is generally then?
By EEPROMS I assume you mean flash memory (like a pc BIOS)? Old style EEPROMS would be too slow now a days wouldnt they (IC's like the 27c256, 27c512 haven't been used for years by many people!) also no one stocks them anymore!
Answers:
Originally posted by clayts
tapping in a few numbers on a remote does not breach the manufacturer's warranty in any way, shape or form :)
Sorry if this "muddies the waters" but I bought one of those budget Logix 3300Ds a few weeks ago which came with the instructions for how to hack for multi region. Prior to delivery I e-mailed their support facility (a 3rd party company apparently) and asked about region changes affecting warranties etc. Their reply was to the effect that remote control hacking did affect the warranty. I couldn't be bothered to go back to them and say "Well the retailer sent specific instructions etc..." So the upshot is I'm still confused !!:confused:
Answers:
Well we've got it clear that it isn't illegal. About it affecting warranties - well lifting the lid to fit new components obviously will affect the warranty. Remote hacking shouldn't though - I mean - how will they know, even if it was sent back for repair. The only difference remote hacking makes is that the player will then play any region. Except for putting in a R1 disc (Or whatever region you fancy) and finding that it plays, there is no change to the player whatsoever.
I would remote hack away and enjoy.
Answers:
Indeed. After all, you could have hit the relevant keys on the remote entirely by accident. If they design the software such that you can do this, they have absolutely NO grounds for refusing a warranty claim.
Answers:
Originally posted by nwgarratt
BTW Clayts as you are here, have you heard any sampos having problems with loading some DVD R's? It can take a few goes for it to load some properly.
Older Sampo's may well struggle with DVD-R as the PC form-factor DVD-ROM drives used in them (especially the Afreey DVD-ROM drive, DP2T, used in the DV450) are actually second generation drives, and technically not compliant with the recordable format. The simplest way round it is to bag a Liteon or similar budget DVD drive, and replace the original loader - dead easy to do, and no more than a ten minute job - see here (http://www.area450.com/thesampozone/articles/driveswapindex.htm) and follow the instructions for the DVE620 drive swap).
Incidentally - revamp that DV450 completely by installing the totally underground OFFA firmware - region-free, VCR friendly, CGMS/A removed and lots of new playback features, including raw .mpg (no need to convert to VCD), .vob, .jpg, .mp3. This is firmware sucked off the superb Sampo DVE631CF, the first player released with a Compact Flash reader. Which means the player had not one, but two IDE devices (the other being the DVD-ROM). People are now hard-wiring hard disc drives into their Sampo players for 120GB media jukebox experiences. Bonkers ! Check it out here (http://www.area450.com/firmware/offa.htm). Now that is warranty voiding !!!
Answers:
Originally posted by ljp
How do you know what size it is generally then?
By EEPROMS I assume you mean flash memory (like a pc BIOS)? Old style EEPROMS would be too slow now a days wouldnt they (IC's like the 27c256, 27c512 haven't been used for years by many people!) also no one stocks them anymore!
Actually, Sampo have been using 29F040s for the last four years, in both DIP and PLCC style. These will always be 512kB firmware files. Sampo always used socketted EEPROMs too, which meant they could be popped out, wired up to a programmer and the firmware sucked off them. Then people would have fun and games altering it.
However, their latest manufacturing processes see the use of larger 1MB EEPROMs, A29800TMs, which are soldered in. And man, they are impossible to do anything with (actually, my US and Australian co-editors at Area 450 managed it between them, but the firmware we got was a bizarre mix of odd and even bytes, completely impossible to encode). They've pretty much got us bang to rights on that one !
Answers:
Older Sampo's may well struggle with DVD-R as the PC form-factor DVD-ROM drives used in them (especially the Afreey DVD-ROM drive, DP2T, used in the DV450) are actually second generation drives, and technically not compliant with the recordable format. The simplest way round it is to bag a Liteon or similar budget DVD drive, and replace the original loader - dead easy to do, and no more than a ten minute job - see here and follow the instructions for the DVE620 drive swap).
Incidentally - revamp that DV450 completely by installing the totally underground OFFA firmware - region-free, VCR friendly, CGMS/A removed and lots of new playback features, including raw .mpg (no need to convert to VCD), .vob, .jpg, .mp3. This is firmware sucked off the superb Sampo DVE631CF, the first player released with a Compact Flash reader. Which means the player had not one, but two IDE devices (the other being the DVD-ROM). People are now hard-wiring hard disc drives into their Sampo players for 120GB media jukebox experiences. Bonkers ! Check it out here. Now that is warranty voiding !!!
I use the modified May sampo 613CF firmware but not the OFFA one. I actually realised it was DVD+R that was ok but DVD+RW was having problems off getting recognised. I don't have acess to DVD - to try the format out.
Answers:
Originally posted by clayts
Actually, Sampo have been using 29F040s for the last four years, in both DIP and PLCC style. These will always be 512kB firmware files. Sampo always used socketted EEPROMs too, which meant they could be popped out, wired up to a programmer and the firmware sucked off them. Then people would have fun and games altering it.
However, their latest manufacturing processes see the use of larger 1MB EEPROMs, A29800TMs, which are soldered in. And man, they are impossible to do anything with (actually, my US and Australian co-editors at Area 450 managed it between them, but the firmware we got was a bizarre mix of odd and even bytes, completely impossible to encode). They've pretty much got us bang to rights on that one !
How stupid are they using a socketed EEPROM! Obviously the software is written somewhere else and then added at the last minute (like most other software nowadays!) and Sampo had no idea that individuals would almost certainly open it up and mess!
I should think they stopped using 29f040's because of security and cost (newer components are far cheaper). Old IC's cost us a fortune (work in micro electronics) cuz we only buy small amounts the future is certainly SMT - and you're not going to crack that unless the programmers are really careless (or they let you do it!)
Cheers for the information by the way:)
Answers:
Originally posted by LV426
Indeed. After all, you could have hit the relevant keys on the remote entirely by accident. If they design the software such that you can do this, they have absolutely NO grounds for refusing a warranty claim.
Absolutely spot on, and that's why it can never be deemed to be tampering with the player, hence the fact it will not void a warranty, despite what some manufacturers or retailers may say to you.
You may find this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2000/dot_life/2197548.stm) interesting, where Cyberhome openly admit they got into trouble by releasing already-hacked multi-region players into the wild.
Answers:
Originally posted by ljp
I should think they stopped using 29f040's because of security and cost (newer components are far cheaper).
Yeah, in fact it was because they changed over from ESS chipsets to MediaTek chipsets - cheaper, but better IMHO :)
Sampo never really had much of a problem with the things we did independently, bless 'em, and in actual fact modified the player firmware in their 2003 range released in Taiwan so that it could do at least some of the things we'd achieved underground, such as .mpg and .vob playback : good luck to 'em !
1 2