Question:
Any suggestions/recommendations? I've heard that the Pioneer DV-656A is supposed to be very good - can anyone confirm?
The Harmon Kardon DVD25/DVD2550 is very nice and gets very good reviews. It's also available for £270 in the powerbuy forum :)
Hmmm - thanks - I'll give it a look. Cheaper than the Pioneer too....
Thread just down page
Originally posted by Mr Bump
Any suggestions/recommendations? I've heard that the Pioneer DV-656A is supposed to be very good - can anyone confirm?
Didn't think the 656 was progressive ?
Its not, Pioneer ditched it for the European version even though its on the US model.
Bugger. Oh well - I'll give that one a wide berth then - thanks for the warning!
as CLH says, look back a few days..
&postid=2619856#post2619856
do you need pal progressive as well as NTSC?
Preferably, yes, although it's not as important.
£270 for the HK seems very reasonable - I thought they retailed for about £450! Not wanting to sound too much like a spud, but what/where is the powerbuy forum?
At the top of the Bargain Forum.
Thanks. Wow - that HK is one sexy looking beast! :luv:
It looks like it was designed by Mr Blobby.
Ahh, Hk's, Leons and Asylum Seekers all designed to diametically sort out the forums views!!!!
Originally posted by Captain_Chaos
It looks like it was designed by Mr Blobby.
pretty sure there is a silver version out now, presumeably all silver, rather than the strange black/ silver oddity they have at the moment.
the US version is all black... very odd.
Mr Bump - what's your budget?
About £350-400, as I'll have to buy a *ack* :gag: 8 meter component RGB cable to go with it....
And who said projectors were the best idea?? :suspect: I could have bought I nice Plasma and had a 1 meter RGB cable, but nooooo - it had to be the bloody big screen, didn't it? ;)
Still, I wouldn't swap it now!
absolutely... a projector makes a huge difference.
round the 8m upto 10 though, otherwise its a custom cable at a non standard size.
should only be £50-60 for a 10m cable component if you shop around.
mind you an ixos or similar from a hifi dealer/ shop will be a lot lot more, £100+ upwards.
what projector?
you dont have much choice if you want ntsc and pal progressive below £400 at the moment,
the hk dvd 25, philips 963, and some of the cheap models at richer.. (limit, cambridge). everything else is well above £400.
the sony 730 and 930 are almost certain to be pal ps but wont arrive for 1-2 months so it depends how urgent you need a player. other makes will hopefully be following suit in the near future if sony bring it out on these as a standard feature.
if you just want ntsc prog scan, then you can add a few more models to the list but no really good players apart from the Toshiba that I can think of.
£50-60? Really? I thought it would be a lot more than that! Where would you suggest as a good place to look for cabling?
It's an Optoma H56. I don't really know how it measures up to other projectors, but I'm pretty damn impressed with it! :)
How much are the Sony models likely to retail at? I can certainly wait, if it's for the right thing! Although it would obviously be nice to get the most out of the projector straight away - my Pioneer DVL-909 is a little long in the tooth..... ;)
Have a look here for cables: http://www.tmfsolutions.co.uk/homecinema_AVcables_vandamme_video.htm
These are VanDamme which are what the pro's use. I use 10m component cables for my projector.
You might want to hold off buying until you get your progressive DVD player since (I think) progressive is only available through component output.
Progressive makes a big difference on projectors. You'll find that it eliminates just about all jaggies and gives a smoother picture when panning.
I picked up my Pioneer DVD 737 for about £300 a couple of years back, so it might be worth looking round for one s/hand cheaper still. It's a solid machine, progressive NTSC and component out. It doesn't have any sound decoders (DD/DTS etc) though.
Thanks - those are the sorts of prices that make me feel a lot happier!
Progressive makes a big difference on projectors. You'll find that it eliminates just about all jaggies and gives a smoother picture when panning.
So I've heard! I haven't noticed that many jaggies, but they are there and the idea of a smoother picture on panning is very enticing!
As for the cable, maybe you can help - the DVD end I assume is going to be a standard 3 phono RGB connection, however the projector end is like so:
http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.hiett/H56.jpg
I assume that it is the DVI connector it would need to go into (or would it be the standard VGA?) - am I going to be able to get a standard cable like this, or is going to have to be custom made?
Thanks Bob, I'll bear that one in mind - although I would much rather have PAL prog scan too if I can. Lack of decoders isn't a problem, as my amp has all that.
DVI is a digital signal and Component Out is analogue. I'm not sure you'd be able to get a cable to connect one with the other. Looks more like a long s-video lead to me ... you tend to have to buy expensive (and often not very good) converters to link to VGA inputs from AV kit.
I already have both a s-video and composite cable running from the amp to the projector, but I was under the impresssion s-video is unable to carry a progressive scan signal. When the projector was demonstrated to me at the HC shop, they had it set on prog scan using a RGB component cable, with a (now that I think of it) VGA connector on one end plugged into the projector (number 5 on that diagram). They have offered to make me up a cable, but (as MartinC pointed out) they aren't exactly the cheapest...:eek:
Yes S-Video cannot pass a progressive signal, the only way to obtain a progressive picture is via component outputs.
Wether the source can actually DO progressive is another matter as there are players which have component outs, but only output interlaced through the component connection.
You might want to consider a HCPC - Home Cinema PC. Basically a small (quiet) PC which will give you progressive output via the DVI or VGA. Maybe worth a look on www.avforums.com
:eek:
Ah, I think something like that might be a little bit overkill for my set-up! I mean, I love my projector an' all, but at the end of the day, it was only three and a half grand - I think you need to have slightly more serious kit before wanting to have a dedicated PC for the progressive scan output!! :)
When I was in the market for a new player (over a year ago) there was only 1 real choice, the Arcam DV27 FMJ. A lot of money at £1,600 but when you spend £3,500 on a projector (Sony VW11) you need to feed it a decent source.
There were a couple of other players i.e. Denon 2800 with downloadable hacks but they all suffer with problems, mainly lip-sync for one reason or another. Even now there is the Denon 3800, Philips 963 and HK25 but again there's been many people posting problems on the avforums.
Some people have gone for HCPC setups which can be put together quite cheaply these days. Might be a good option until we finally get a reliable PAL and NTSC progressive player in the UK.... unless you want to buy the Arcams DV88+ or DV27/DV27A. These are not perfect mind you, but pretty good when coupled with the customer services and a lot cheaper than the Tag McLarens!
But is a £1000+ DVD player not a bit overkill for a £3500 projector? I mean, I know mine and your projectors are hardly entry level, but neither are they that high up the list - you can spend a lot more on a projector if you had the mind and the money. If I had a £8000 Toshiba MT8 or something similar, then I would think that a £1500 DVD player would probably be worth it, as the projector would (hopefully) be able to live up to it - I question whether our projectors can.
Mr Bump - the media factory was exactly where I was thinking of your cable for £50-60. excellent quality they are too.
knock the 3800 dvd player off the list by the way, Denon aren't making them anymore... maybe a few available still but not in great supply, plus very buggy throughout its production run. you may get a good one, you may not.
similarly, I had a 2800, and then a 2800 mkII, with the hacked firmware that nigel describes... excellent picture at best, also equally unreliable at times and prone to lipsync problems on r2 dvds.
I've now switched to the aforemention philips 963 and am finally happy (so far).
I do have a laptop to fall back on so the HTPC route is still possible for me.
I think the likes of Sony bringing a player out with pal ps will help immensely though - should be a standard feature in a few months time.
The Sony players out soon have been given the thumbs down already with prog scan performance.
The ES999 recieved poor ratings for prog scan.
Click here for the Sony ES999 prog scan review (among others)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=5
For those who hate scrolling:-
"On the good side, the component timing on this player was the best of the bunch and was pretty much dead on. It was the only player in shootout 3 to be under 2ns.
On the bad side, this was one of only two players that was not capable of reproducing blacker than black picture information. All below black information was clipped. This causes problems with the shadow detail, as there are a lot of films with below-black information in the darkest details on screen. All of those details become flat even black and look unnatural with the black is clipped. There is no technical reason to do it, and no limitation of the DACs they chose; it's just poor attention to details.
The frequency response of the player was very good overall. This player is using the new 14-bit / 108 MHz video DAC from Analog Devices and this one part costs more than some Apex DVD players.
There was 1 line cropped from the bottom of the image and 1 sample cropped from the right.
In general, we think Sony can do better than this. Especially at this price point, it's just not competitive with other players that get more core details right. The shimmering problem with high detail scenes is alone annoying enough to keep us from recommending this player."
Mind you there appears to be no perfect players out there in reality AND of course this is not a PAL test.
Still worth demoing IMO and the 930 at £279 is really still a bargain.
Sorry guys – ignore me, I’m being a dickhead – just checked all the stuff that came with the projector and it actually comes with a RGB phono to VGA converter, so I just need a standard cable! The 10 meter on that site should be perfect. :)
As for the player, Acram is certainly a name I come across again and again and the DV88 is supposed to be wonderful - I could certainly stretch to that kind of budget in a month or two, if it really is going to be up there on the screen and not just lost due to the projector 'not being up to it'.
the arcam has the chroma bug :D
okay, it does but its not as visible as on some.
re: the new Sony models - remember the sony 999es is their top spec model, the chipsets are likely to different in the cheaper models. also the black level problem should be an easy firmware fix.
still worth waiting for, especially if it causes a stampede from other manufacturers - Toshiba & Pioneer would be good for starters catching with Philips, Harman Kardon & now Sony (hopefully).
Just how much of a problem is the chroma bug though? Is it a really issue, or something you only notice if you're actually looking for it?
It's more noticable on some films - mostly animations like Toy Story. It's seems to be most prominent on bold reds (like the Toy Story logo) but I found that I had the colour set way too high on the projector. I don't notice it at all now that I've calibrated the setup.
As for overkill on the DVD player with a £3,500 projector, I think it's money well spent - I don't think I'd got any higher though, certainly not to the Tag's. It's not just the video performance, the sound quality is exceptional too.
I think it's best to spend money on your source to get the most out of the DVD. A more expensive projector will give you a better picture but you're looking at very large expensive CRT models to do this. The picture is stunning on Barco's but they need way too much maintenence for my liking.... and a re-inforced roof!
Hmm, I was quite tempted by the Sony 999es but after looking at those reviews I'm not so sure, shame as I've been really happy with my current Sony player (7700).
Anyone know if the Denon 3800 does PAL progressive, doesn't say on the Denon site?
Don't really see the real benefits of Progressive scan players TBH. The method used to create the doubling of frames is very crude.
Crude yes, but very effective on a big screen :)
Neil, I don't think Denon acknowledge a PAL progressive version of their player. It's very much a user hack and has had lots of problems (see posts above).
and the 3800 is no longer available either... 5900 will be the vague replacement along with the 2900.
the 2900 is already reporting very similar production problems to previous denon models - why risk it based on their track record with dvd? the support for pal progressive is non-existent also and not supported.. a joke in comparison to arcam's excellent responsiveness.
also I don't think I'd call the method of progressive scanning crude... doing a 100hz on a TV is crude, proper progressive scan isn't at all.. very complex but worthwhile.
essentially its reconstituting interlaced frames back to their original full state as they were on film... so not really crude as such.
and as for the benefits they are very clear - a brighter, sharper and more solid image with none of the associated flickering of the normal pal or ntsc video format. a HTPC does non-interlaced video to a pj at 60hz upwards - exactly the same thing but with higher resolution.
It is crude cos you are taking a scource that was originally filmed at 24fps and then adding 3:2 pulldown and then taking tow interlaced fields (from the same frame) and producing one frame from them. The rest of the process involves a seuqence similar to 3:2 pulldown whereby the frame are sequenced in two's and then threes (111,22,333,44,555,66....) in order to produce 60 frames per second.
Also bear another thing in mind if you have a movement filmed originally over 24 frames and you increase the number to 60 frames how are you making the thing a great deal smoother. You have only captured the original at 24fps so you can't depict any more movement at the higher frame rate!
A farce and an amazing marketing ploy!
Originally posted by Philc
A farce and an amazing marketing ploy!
not really... since the player has to support pal or ntsc, then the method had to be shoe-horned into the existing systems.
the dvd people had to make some sort of call on the 24fps technical issue, especially with the mpeg frame compression on top of that. no point on them storing additional useless frames to get to 60 fields or some other arbitary frame rate so the system does make sense.
agreed its not perfect, but there is no other alternative.
something like 72 fps would have been nice to allow faster/ smoother pans but its not going to happen anytime soon.
as to its crudeness or complexity, I dont really care.. it works when I see the image on the screen.:)
what frame rate are things like Monsters Inc or the new Star Wars films with digital masters or cameras? better or just the same?
I've just got the Compacks DVD-5000 from Safeway at £49.99.
Has progressive scan, has a multi reion hack plays everything (DVD, DVD+,-,RW, VCD,SVCD, JPEG,MP3, has 5.1 decoder, even has a Dolby Prologic 2 decoder built in.
Originally posted by ivanwilson
I've just got the Compacks DVD-5000 from Safeway at £49.99.
Has progressive scan
just ntsc progressive scan or pal also?
I know Cambridge Micros have some at Richer Sounds but not heard anything about this player.
Well you are opening a can of worms with films like Monsters Inc because the DVD mastering is a complete joke. Basically the progressive_flag frame is on for one frame, then off for the next frame,then on then off etc....most players which use the flags (ie all of them) will switch every alternating frame between film-mode decoding and video-mode decoding, which result in some really disgusting effects.
I have still not worked out why some manufacturers do this to discs.
monsters inc is probably a bad example, not really what I meant anyway - I was talking in terms of the original source before DVDmastering.
similarly, the star wars films shot on digital video.
so progscan is all based 24 fps for film, but is the underlying format now changing with digital cameras?
or is it just exactly the same result.
Str Wars AOTC was filmed on a High Definition camera at 24fps so the DVD should really be mastered from that source for best effects rather than going to 3:2 pulldown etc....
Originally posted by MartinC
just ntsc progressive scan or pal also?
I know Cambridge Micros have some at Richer Sounds but not heard anything about this player.
Sorry MartinC, I don't know. Other people have been asking on the bargain so maybe someone with the hardware and software will give it a go.
Well, I've currently got a Primare V25 on demo, so I'll see how that goes. It has a XVGA output, so that could work very well indeed with my pj - I only have components at the moment, but I'm going to get a long VGA cable and see how it compares...
Mr Bump, the Primare isn't meant to be that good, and certainly not worth the list price. have a look at avforums, sure there was a post there.
thanks for info ivanwilson.. just wondered why people were buying the cheap player when they dont know what they are getting.
Yeah, but it's ex-demo and only £650 with a full warranty, so I'm pretty tempted. I haven't signed on the dotted line yet though - and friend is going to bring his Arcam DV88+ around and we are going to compare the two. I know the 88 is supposed to be excellent - I need to decide if it is £350 better.....
I've just skimmed this thread 'cos I'm at work - but does your projector support Pal Progressive - 576p I think it is. If it dosen't, you'll need a deinterlacer (like the iscan pro) which will make everything 480p - Pal, NTSC and even Sky...if not, have a look at the Panasonic S75 - NTSC progressive and DVDA. Also plays DVD Ram and WMA files as well...
Well, as warned, the Primare wasn't much cop, even at the reduced price, so now I'm back to square one.... :oh-hum:
what problems? I remember reading the General's post on avforums and it originally came pretty close to a arcam dv88+ at the time - some glitches though.
perhaps best waiting for the sony 930 or picking up one of these cheap safeways machines as a temporary measure if you are really desperate for a player.
my Philips 963 is working perfectly though, available for about £300 if you shop around.
what resolution is the panel of your projector by the way?
a HTPC maybe the best route.
1024x768 I believe.
I'm not really that desperate yet - my Pioneer my be a bit old, but it still outputs a great picture.
It was the same one Skanky had tried - the colours were way too high IMO - everything looked like a cartoon on standard settings. Reducing the colour and tint and especially the Red contrast and brightness on the pj improved things, but the picture still looked a bit unnatural. The overall definition was quite good, but more what I would expect from a £3-400 machine than a £1000 player. Also - and I don't know if this was just something wrong with this player or a quirk of the model, but it has a very annoying coloured flicker whenever you pause or play a disc - again, not the end of the world, but you kinda expect perfection, or close to it in regard to things like that at that price...
You might want to consider a HCPC - Home Cinema PC.
Ah, I think something like that might be a little bit overkill for my set-up! I mean, I love my projector an' all, but at the end of the day, it was only three and a half grand - I think you need to have slightly more serious kit before wanting to have a dedicated PC for the progressive scan output!!
Why buy a new one...I'm paying £650 for my PJ and have managed to put a HTPC together for less than £300!! Most of it second hand from www.ebuyer.com Once you've used HTPC, there really is no alternative IMO. Plus, you can do flashy things like download trailers from www.apple.com/trailers , store them on the hard drive and play them back before a screening...:thumbs: They fill the screen (most are 16.9 anamorphic) and are in Dolby Surround...
Most people who have seen DVI and VGA say there isn't much difference between the 2 and you can pick up a 7.5 meter VGA cable for less than £30...
Okay, it keeps coming back to this and I must say I'm getting interested. However, it does all look a little scary...:eek:
I've had a look at avforums HTPC section, but it kinda assumes that you have the first clue about what you are doing - and I don't. I already have a pretty decent PC (P4 2.4Ghz, 512Mb RAM, Toshiba DVD, GeForce 4 4400 Ti) - would I be able to use this to at least 'try out' HTPC - to see what it's like, so to speak? I've just downloaded Dscalar and I'll put it on my PC tonight and I have a DVI cable that is long enough to connect to the pj for test purposes. Do I need any other software? Is my hardware not good enough/lacking something?
that should be fine spec-wise, easily enough.
you only need d-scaler if you're going to take in vcr, an external dvd player or some other input though.
for dvds from the PC, you have everything you need already.
So what are the advantages of using a PC? I've used a PC or laptop to watch DVDs before now (although only on the PCs monitor) and don't remember the picture quality being of particular note.....
everything is progressively scanned on a PC (since it has to run non-interlaced) plus you can upscale your resolution to exactly match your projector's panel at 1:1 pixel ratio.
also you can choose the refresh rate on the PC so you can get a better match for smooth movement, like 72hz for example.
Sounds interesting.... :)
I'll let you know what I think....
Obviously, all I'll be looking at tonight is picture, but does this mean you can get soundcards with optical out for 5.1?
yes.. most decent ones.
fairly common now even my laptop has spdif out for dd/dts, handy as a backup for projector duties.
Heh - I just use the onboard sound at the moment - always been fine for games! ;)
No-one has mentioned the Denon DVD A1 yet.
It can be made region free also prog. scan very quickly and easily with the aid of a cd firmware update. Apart from the Chroma bug its a damn good player, well mine hasnt failed to play a single disc yet!
Originally posted by BrianDay
have managed to put a HTPC together for less than £300!!
Brian,
Any chance you could post some further details (perhaps in a new thread?). I have been thinking about dipping my toes in the HTPC arena but am not sure where to start.
Scott
ljp - I'm actually looking at the Denon 2900 now - I'm just waiting for a Denon approved region hack before I take one for testing.
Originally posted by Mr Bump
ljp - I'm actually looking at the Denon 2900 now - I'm just waiting for a Denon approved region hack before I take one for testing.
Denon UK (Haydn Labs) are probably the worst company ever to deal with! If you get stuck and just want to buy the player and mod it afterwards you may get help from these forums:
http://pub106.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumfrm38
(although it's the A1 forum they are a pretty helpful bunch!)
If you're still stuck drop me a mail and I'll see what I can find. :)
Answers:
The Harmon Kardon DVD25/DVD2550 is very nice and gets very good reviews. It's also available for £270 in the powerbuy forum :)
Answers:
Hmmm - thanks - I'll give it a look. Cheaper than the Pioneer too....
Answers:
Thread just down page
Answers:
Originally posted by Mr Bump
Any suggestions/recommendations? I've heard that the Pioneer DV-656A is supposed to be very good - can anyone confirm?
Didn't think the 656 was progressive ?
Answers:
Its not, Pioneer ditched it for the European version even though its on the US model.
Answers:
Bugger. Oh well - I'll give that one a wide berth then - thanks for the warning!
Answers:
as CLH says, look back a few days..
&postid=2619856#post2619856
do you need pal progressive as well as NTSC?
Answers:
Preferably, yes, although it's not as important.
£270 for the HK seems very reasonable - I thought they retailed for about £450! Not wanting to sound too much like a spud, but what/where is the powerbuy forum?
Answers:
At the top of the Bargain Forum.
Answers:
Thanks. Wow - that HK is one sexy looking beast! :luv:
Answers:
It looks like it was designed by Mr Blobby.
Answers:
Ahh, Hk's, Leons and Asylum Seekers all designed to diametically sort out the forums views!!!!
Answers:
Originally posted by Captain_Chaos
It looks like it was designed by Mr Blobby.
pretty sure there is a silver version out now, presumeably all silver, rather than the strange black/ silver oddity they have at the moment.
the US version is all black... very odd.
Mr Bump - what's your budget?
Answers:
About £350-400, as I'll have to buy a *ack* :gag: 8 meter component RGB cable to go with it....
And who said projectors were the best idea?? :suspect: I could have bought I nice Plasma and had a 1 meter RGB cable, but nooooo - it had to be the bloody big screen, didn't it? ;)
Still, I wouldn't swap it now!
Answers:
absolutely... a projector makes a huge difference.
round the 8m upto 10 though, otherwise its a custom cable at a non standard size.
should only be £50-60 for a 10m cable component if you shop around.
mind you an ixos or similar from a hifi dealer/ shop will be a lot lot more, £100+ upwards.
what projector?
you dont have much choice if you want ntsc and pal progressive below £400 at the moment,
the hk dvd 25, philips 963, and some of the cheap models at richer.. (limit, cambridge). everything else is well above £400.
the sony 730 and 930 are almost certain to be pal ps but wont arrive for 1-2 months so it depends how urgent you need a player. other makes will hopefully be following suit in the near future if sony bring it out on these as a standard feature.
if you just want ntsc prog scan, then you can add a few more models to the list but no really good players apart from the Toshiba that I can think of.
Answers:
£50-60? Really? I thought it would be a lot more than that! Where would you suggest as a good place to look for cabling?
It's an Optoma H56. I don't really know how it measures up to other projectors, but I'm pretty damn impressed with it! :)
How much are the Sony models likely to retail at? I can certainly wait, if it's for the right thing! Although it would obviously be nice to get the most out of the projector straight away - my Pioneer DVL-909 is a little long in the tooth..... ;)
Answers:
Have a look here for cables: http://www.tmfsolutions.co.uk/homecinema_AVcables_vandamme_video.htm
These are VanDamme which are what the pro's use. I use 10m component cables for my projector.
You might want to hold off buying until you get your progressive DVD player since (I think) progressive is only available through component output.
Progressive makes a big difference on projectors. You'll find that it eliminates just about all jaggies and gives a smoother picture when panning.
Answers:
I picked up my Pioneer DVD 737 for about £300 a couple of years back, so it might be worth looking round for one s/hand cheaper still. It's a solid machine, progressive NTSC and component out. It doesn't have any sound decoders (DD/DTS etc) though.
Answers:
Thanks - those are the sorts of prices that make me feel a lot happier!
Progressive makes a big difference on projectors. You'll find that it eliminates just about all jaggies and gives a smoother picture when panning.
So I've heard! I haven't noticed that many jaggies, but they are there and the idea of a smoother picture on panning is very enticing!
As for the cable, maybe you can help - the DVD end I assume is going to be a standard 3 phono RGB connection, however the projector end is like so:
http://www.btinternet.com/~alan.hiett/H56.jpg
I assume that it is the DVI connector it would need to go into (or would it be the standard VGA?) - am I going to be able to get a standard cable like this, or is going to have to be custom made?
Thanks Bob, I'll bear that one in mind - although I would much rather have PAL prog scan too if I can. Lack of decoders isn't a problem, as my amp has all that.
Answers:
DVI is a digital signal and Component Out is analogue. I'm not sure you'd be able to get a cable to connect one with the other. Looks more like a long s-video lead to me ... you tend to have to buy expensive (and often not very good) converters to link to VGA inputs from AV kit.
Answers:
I already have both a s-video and composite cable running from the amp to the projector, but I was under the impresssion s-video is unable to carry a progressive scan signal. When the projector was demonstrated to me at the HC shop, they had it set on prog scan using a RGB component cable, with a (now that I think of it) VGA connector on one end plugged into the projector (number 5 on that diagram). They have offered to make me up a cable, but (as MartinC pointed out) they aren't exactly the cheapest...:eek:
Answers:
Yes S-Video cannot pass a progressive signal, the only way to obtain a progressive picture is via component outputs.
Wether the source can actually DO progressive is another matter as there are players which have component outs, but only output interlaced through the component connection.
Answers:
You might want to consider a HCPC - Home Cinema PC. Basically a small (quiet) PC which will give you progressive output via the DVI or VGA. Maybe worth a look on www.avforums.com
Answers:
:eek:
Ah, I think something like that might be a little bit overkill for my set-up! I mean, I love my projector an' all, but at the end of the day, it was only three and a half grand - I think you need to have slightly more serious kit before wanting to have a dedicated PC for the progressive scan output!! :)
Answers:
When I was in the market for a new player (over a year ago) there was only 1 real choice, the Arcam DV27 FMJ. A lot of money at £1,600 but when you spend £3,500 on a projector (Sony VW11) you need to feed it a decent source.
There were a couple of other players i.e. Denon 2800 with downloadable hacks but they all suffer with problems, mainly lip-sync for one reason or another. Even now there is the Denon 3800, Philips 963 and HK25 but again there's been many people posting problems on the avforums.
Some people have gone for HCPC setups which can be put together quite cheaply these days. Might be a good option until we finally get a reliable PAL and NTSC progressive player in the UK.... unless you want to buy the Arcams DV88+ or DV27/DV27A. These are not perfect mind you, but pretty good when coupled with the customer services and a lot cheaper than the Tag McLarens!
Answers:
But is a £1000+ DVD player not a bit overkill for a £3500 projector? I mean, I know mine and your projectors are hardly entry level, but neither are they that high up the list - you can spend a lot more on a projector if you had the mind and the money. If I had a £8000 Toshiba MT8 or something similar, then I would think that a £1500 DVD player would probably be worth it, as the projector would (hopefully) be able to live up to it - I question whether our projectors can.
Answers:
Mr Bump - the media factory was exactly where I was thinking of your cable for £50-60. excellent quality they are too.
knock the 3800 dvd player off the list by the way, Denon aren't making them anymore... maybe a few available still but not in great supply, plus very buggy throughout its production run. you may get a good one, you may not.
similarly, I had a 2800, and then a 2800 mkII, with the hacked firmware that nigel describes... excellent picture at best, also equally unreliable at times and prone to lipsync problems on r2 dvds.
I've now switched to the aforemention philips 963 and am finally happy (so far).
I do have a laptop to fall back on so the HTPC route is still possible for me.
I think the likes of Sony bringing a player out with pal ps will help immensely though - should be a standard feature in a few months time.
Answers:
The Sony players out soon have been given the thumbs down already with prog scan performance.
The ES999 recieved poor ratings for prog scan.
Click here for the Sony ES999 prog scan review (among others)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=5
Answers:
For those who hate scrolling:-
"On the good side, the component timing on this player was the best of the bunch and was pretty much dead on. It was the only player in shootout 3 to be under 2ns.
On the bad side, this was one of only two players that was not capable of reproducing blacker than black picture information. All below black information was clipped. This causes problems with the shadow detail, as there are a lot of films with below-black information in the darkest details on screen. All of those details become flat even black and look unnatural with the black is clipped. There is no technical reason to do it, and no limitation of the DACs they chose; it's just poor attention to details.
The frequency response of the player was very good overall. This player is using the new 14-bit / 108 MHz video DAC from Analog Devices and this one part costs more than some Apex DVD players.
There was 1 line cropped from the bottom of the image and 1 sample cropped from the right.
In general, we think Sony can do better than this. Especially at this price point, it's just not competitive with other players that get more core details right. The shimmering problem with high detail scenes is alone annoying enough to keep us from recommending this player."
Mind you there appears to be no perfect players out there in reality AND of course this is not a PAL test.
Still worth demoing IMO and the 930 at £279 is really still a bargain.
Answers:
Sorry guys – ignore me, I’m being a dickhead – just checked all the stuff that came with the projector and it actually comes with a RGB phono to VGA converter, so I just need a standard cable! The 10 meter on that site should be perfect. :)
As for the player, Acram is certainly a name I come across again and again and the DV88 is supposed to be wonderful - I could certainly stretch to that kind of budget in a month or two, if it really is going to be up there on the screen and not just lost due to the projector 'not being up to it'.
Answers:
the arcam has the chroma bug :D
okay, it does but its not as visible as on some.
re: the new Sony models - remember the sony 999es is their top spec model, the chipsets are likely to different in the cheaper models. also the black level problem should be an easy firmware fix.
still worth waiting for, especially if it causes a stampede from other manufacturers - Toshiba & Pioneer would be good for starters catching with Philips, Harman Kardon & now Sony (hopefully).
Answers:
Just how much of a problem is the chroma bug though? Is it a really issue, or something you only notice if you're actually looking for it?
Answers:
It's more noticable on some films - mostly animations like Toy Story. It's seems to be most prominent on bold reds (like the Toy Story logo) but I found that I had the colour set way too high on the projector. I don't notice it at all now that I've calibrated the setup.
As for overkill on the DVD player with a £3,500 projector, I think it's money well spent - I don't think I'd got any higher though, certainly not to the Tag's. It's not just the video performance, the sound quality is exceptional too.
I think it's best to spend money on your source to get the most out of the DVD. A more expensive projector will give you a better picture but you're looking at very large expensive CRT models to do this. The picture is stunning on Barco's but they need way too much maintenence for my liking.... and a re-inforced roof!
Answers:
Hmm, I was quite tempted by the Sony 999es but after looking at those reviews I'm not so sure, shame as I've been really happy with my current Sony player (7700).
Anyone know if the Denon 3800 does PAL progressive, doesn't say on the Denon site?
Answers:
Don't really see the real benefits of Progressive scan players TBH. The method used to create the doubling of frames is very crude.
Answers:
Crude yes, but very effective on a big screen :)
Neil, I don't think Denon acknowledge a PAL progressive version of their player. It's very much a user hack and has had lots of problems (see posts above).
Answers:
and the 3800 is no longer available either... 5900 will be the vague replacement along with the 2900.
the 2900 is already reporting very similar production problems to previous denon models - why risk it based on their track record with dvd? the support for pal progressive is non-existent also and not supported.. a joke in comparison to arcam's excellent responsiveness.
also I don't think I'd call the method of progressive scanning crude... doing a 100hz on a TV is crude, proper progressive scan isn't at all.. very complex but worthwhile.
essentially its reconstituting interlaced frames back to their original full state as they were on film... so not really crude as such.
and as for the benefits they are very clear - a brighter, sharper and more solid image with none of the associated flickering of the normal pal or ntsc video format. a HTPC does non-interlaced video to a pj at 60hz upwards - exactly the same thing but with higher resolution.
Answers:
It is crude cos you are taking a scource that was originally filmed at 24fps and then adding 3:2 pulldown and then taking tow interlaced fields (from the same frame) and producing one frame from them. The rest of the process involves a seuqence similar to 3:2 pulldown whereby the frame are sequenced in two's and then threes (111,22,333,44,555,66....) in order to produce 60 frames per second.
Also bear another thing in mind if you have a movement filmed originally over 24 frames and you increase the number to 60 frames how are you making the thing a great deal smoother. You have only captured the original at 24fps so you can't depict any more movement at the higher frame rate!
A farce and an amazing marketing ploy!
Answers:
Originally posted by Philc
A farce and an amazing marketing ploy!
not really... since the player has to support pal or ntsc, then the method had to be shoe-horned into the existing systems.
the dvd people had to make some sort of call on the 24fps technical issue, especially with the mpeg frame compression on top of that. no point on them storing additional useless frames to get to 60 fields or some other arbitary frame rate so the system does make sense.
agreed its not perfect, but there is no other alternative.
something like 72 fps would have been nice to allow faster/ smoother pans but its not going to happen anytime soon.
as to its crudeness or complexity, I dont really care.. it works when I see the image on the screen.:)
what frame rate are things like Monsters Inc or the new Star Wars films with digital masters or cameras? better or just the same?
Answers:
I've just got the Compacks DVD-5000 from Safeway at £49.99.
Has progressive scan, has a multi reion hack plays everything (DVD, DVD+,-,RW, VCD,SVCD, JPEG,MP3, has 5.1 decoder, even has a Dolby Prologic 2 decoder built in.
Answers:
Originally posted by ivanwilson
I've just got the Compacks DVD-5000 from Safeway at £49.99.
Has progressive scan
just ntsc progressive scan or pal also?
I know Cambridge Micros have some at Richer Sounds but not heard anything about this player.
Answers:
Well you are opening a can of worms with films like Monsters Inc because the DVD mastering is a complete joke. Basically the progressive_flag frame is on for one frame, then off for the next frame,then on then off etc....most players which use the flags (ie all of them) will switch every alternating frame between film-mode decoding and video-mode decoding, which result in some really disgusting effects.
I have still not worked out why some manufacturers do this to discs.
Answers:
monsters inc is probably a bad example, not really what I meant anyway - I was talking in terms of the original source before DVDmastering.
similarly, the star wars films shot on digital video.
so progscan is all based 24 fps for film, but is the underlying format now changing with digital cameras?
or is it just exactly the same result.
Answers:
Str Wars AOTC was filmed on a High Definition camera at 24fps so the DVD should really be mastered from that source for best effects rather than going to 3:2 pulldown etc....
Answers:
Originally posted by MartinC
just ntsc progressive scan or pal also?
I know Cambridge Micros have some at Richer Sounds but not heard anything about this player.
Sorry MartinC, I don't know. Other people have been asking on the bargain so maybe someone with the hardware and software will give it a go.
Answers:
Well, I've currently got a Primare V25 on demo, so I'll see how that goes. It has a XVGA output, so that could work very well indeed with my pj - I only have components at the moment, but I'm going to get a long VGA cable and see how it compares...
Answers:
Mr Bump, the Primare isn't meant to be that good, and certainly not worth the list price. have a look at avforums, sure there was a post there.
thanks for info ivanwilson.. just wondered why people were buying the cheap player when they dont know what they are getting.
Answers:
Yeah, but it's ex-demo and only £650 with a full warranty, so I'm pretty tempted. I haven't signed on the dotted line yet though - and friend is going to bring his Arcam DV88+ around and we are going to compare the two. I know the 88 is supposed to be excellent - I need to decide if it is £350 better.....
Answers:
I've just skimmed this thread 'cos I'm at work - but does your projector support Pal Progressive - 576p I think it is. If it dosen't, you'll need a deinterlacer (like the iscan pro) which will make everything 480p - Pal, NTSC and even Sky...if not, have a look at the Panasonic S75 - NTSC progressive and DVDA. Also plays DVD Ram and WMA files as well...
Answers:
Well, as warned, the Primare wasn't much cop, even at the reduced price, so now I'm back to square one.... :oh-hum:
Answers:
what problems? I remember reading the General's post on avforums and it originally came pretty close to a arcam dv88+ at the time - some glitches though.
perhaps best waiting for the sony 930 or picking up one of these cheap safeways machines as a temporary measure if you are really desperate for a player.
my Philips 963 is working perfectly though, available for about £300 if you shop around.
what resolution is the panel of your projector by the way?
a HTPC maybe the best route.
Answers:
1024x768 I believe.
I'm not really that desperate yet - my Pioneer my be a bit old, but it still outputs a great picture.
It was the same one Skanky had tried - the colours were way too high IMO - everything looked like a cartoon on standard settings. Reducing the colour and tint and especially the Red contrast and brightness on the pj improved things, but the picture still looked a bit unnatural. The overall definition was quite good, but more what I would expect from a £3-400 machine than a £1000 player. Also - and I don't know if this was just something wrong with this player or a quirk of the model, but it has a very annoying coloured flicker whenever you pause or play a disc - again, not the end of the world, but you kinda expect perfection, or close to it in regard to things like that at that price...
Answers:
You might want to consider a HCPC - Home Cinema PC.
Ah, I think something like that might be a little bit overkill for my set-up! I mean, I love my projector an' all, but at the end of the day, it was only three and a half grand - I think you need to have slightly more serious kit before wanting to have a dedicated PC for the progressive scan output!!
Why buy a new one...I'm paying £650 for my PJ and have managed to put a HTPC together for less than £300!! Most of it second hand from www.ebuyer.com Once you've used HTPC, there really is no alternative IMO. Plus, you can do flashy things like download trailers from www.apple.com/trailers , store them on the hard drive and play them back before a screening...:thumbs: They fill the screen (most are 16.9 anamorphic) and are in Dolby Surround...
Most people who have seen DVI and VGA say there isn't much difference between the 2 and you can pick up a 7.5 meter VGA cable for less than £30...
Answers:
Okay, it keeps coming back to this and I must say I'm getting interested. However, it does all look a little scary...:eek:
I've had a look at avforums HTPC section, but it kinda assumes that you have the first clue about what you are doing - and I don't. I already have a pretty decent PC (P4 2.4Ghz, 512Mb RAM, Toshiba DVD, GeForce 4 4400 Ti) - would I be able to use this to at least 'try out' HTPC - to see what it's like, so to speak? I've just downloaded Dscalar and I'll put it on my PC tonight and I have a DVI cable that is long enough to connect to the pj for test purposes. Do I need any other software? Is my hardware not good enough/lacking something?
Answers:
that should be fine spec-wise, easily enough.
you only need d-scaler if you're going to take in vcr, an external dvd player or some other input though.
for dvds from the PC, you have everything you need already.
Answers:
So what are the advantages of using a PC? I've used a PC or laptop to watch DVDs before now (although only on the PCs monitor) and don't remember the picture quality being of particular note.....
Answers:
everything is progressively scanned on a PC (since it has to run non-interlaced) plus you can upscale your resolution to exactly match your projector's panel at 1:1 pixel ratio.
also you can choose the refresh rate on the PC so you can get a better match for smooth movement, like 72hz for example.
Answers:
Sounds interesting.... :)
I'll let you know what I think....
Obviously, all I'll be looking at tonight is picture, but does this mean you can get soundcards with optical out for 5.1?
Answers:
yes.. most decent ones.
fairly common now even my laptop has spdif out for dd/dts, handy as a backup for projector duties.
Answers:
Heh - I just use the onboard sound at the moment - always been fine for games! ;)
Answers:
No-one has mentioned the Denon DVD A1 yet.
It can be made region free also prog. scan very quickly and easily with the aid of a cd firmware update. Apart from the Chroma bug its a damn good player, well mine hasnt failed to play a single disc yet!
Answers:
Originally posted by BrianDay
have managed to put a HTPC together for less than £300!!
Brian,
Any chance you could post some further details (perhaps in a new thread?). I have been thinking about dipping my toes in the HTPC arena but am not sure where to start.
Scott
Answers:
ljp - I'm actually looking at the Denon 2900 now - I'm just waiting for a Denon approved region hack before I take one for testing.
Answers:
Originally posted by Mr Bump
ljp - I'm actually looking at the Denon 2900 now - I'm just waiting for a Denon approved region hack before I take one for testing.
Denon UK (Haydn Labs) are probably the worst company ever to deal with! If you get stuck and just want to buy the player and mod it afterwards you may get help from these forums:
http://pub106.ezboard.com/faussiedvdandhtforumfrm38
(although it's the A1 forum they are a pretty helpful bunch!)
If you're still stuck drop me a mail and I'll see what I can find. :)
1 2