Question:
I've not noticed anyone else mention this, but has anyone else noticed that many widescreen TVs are set up with a greater than a one-to-one horizontal-to-vertical ratio.
This applies to 16:9 images viewed in 16:9 mode and 4:3 images viewed in 4:3 mode equally.
I know some people are quite happy to watch a 4:3 image in 16:9 mode, (I know people who can't even tell when they are watching a 4:3 image which is being displayed as 16:9!), so this effect probably wouldn't bother them. But it bothers me. (To the extent that I've had to return 2 widescreen TVs already as I couldn't bear to watch them.)
If anyone else shares my view, and knows why manufacturers do this, or any that don't and actually display a properly proportioned image on screen, perhaps they'd like to add their comments.
There should be a setting on your WSTV which will pan the 4:3 image and allow it to almost fill the screen. You will undoubtedly lose some of the vertical picture but it looks almost as good as the 4:3 image on the same set.
Dependent on the WSTV, the modes will differ. I have the Loewe Aconda and I set mine to an auto mode and dictate that all 4:3 images will be put into the fill mode and I can live with it. I know that som of the other sets do not allow this and their modes look terrible.
Maybe you ought to consider getting an 4:3 RPTV to account for your dislikes.
My JVC has a setting that expands a 4:3 picture to fill the screen but distorts the sides only and leaves the centre pretty much alone - looks fine most of the time.
Now I have a Freeview box it's less of a problem now :p
Philc and Peter UK,
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not trying to get 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen. In fact I don't want to. I only want to watch a presentation in its correct aspect ratio, (ie 4:3 as 4:3, 16:9 as 16:9). Nor am I talking about any particular mode, as the problem I'm trying to describe seems to me to occur in all modes. (I've seen the mode you describe also Peter, [I believe some manufacturers call it 'justified'], and I can't bear it either).
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
The problem I notice is that this isn't the case. On the widescreen TVs I've seen the circle would be shown as being wider than it is high. (You can see this by comparing a 4:3 image displayed in 4:3 mode on a widescreen, and the same image displayed on a conventional 4:3 TV next to it. [Comet, Currys, Asda, all places where a lot of TVs are on display side by side showing the same picture, are good places to try this experiment.])
So if you're watching 'The Matrix' for instance, normally, (when stood up), Trinity looks too short and squat, but when she dives through the window in the opening chase sequence, and is horizontal on the screen, she looks tall and thin.
Someone else must have noticed this!
I think it's likely that your previous display was incorrectly set so you are now seeing everything different and think it's the current TV which is wrong.
However, if you are checking this correctly using something like THX Optimode (for BOTH PAL and NTSC separately, because the geometry will be different, regardless of whether or not there are separate geometry adjustments available for PAL and NTSC) then it's just a case of going into the service menu of the TV and tweaking it.
Returning sets because it's out of whack a little here is totally unnecesary. If you can't tweak yourself, then get the engineer round. If you expect perfection from a TV without a bit of tweaking then you have an infinitely long wait before you keep any TV. In fact, if you expect perfection at all, you'll be sorely disappointed - it doesn't exist.
Have to agree with Squirrel God - even with no end of fiddling you'll never get it *perfect* on a CRT...
I had to play when my DVD player introduced a nasty left-shift through RGB, and after going in the service mode I found:
- NTSC was underscanning, i.e. too narrow for the screen
- PAL was MASSIVELY overscanning
- Each widescreen mode has geometry for both PAL and NTSC, so it took me AGES to get where I am!
Even after all this plus more tweaking, there is a slight 'dip' in the picture at the top of my screen on NTSC (totally un-noticable to everyone bu me), plus some 'wonky pillar' effects at the sides.
The more you look the more you you find, it's not worth trying to find faults cos they just bug the hell out of you! You just have to live with this or get a plasma I'm afraid - nature of the CRT beast!
Squirrel god and Home_bas,
Thanks for your replies. I had sort of assumed it was because the TVs I'd bought were cheap. I also sort of assumed TV adjustment was still a case of twiddling knobs inside, but guess I ought really to have realised times have moved on in this respect. (After all, DVD players are full of hidden menus!)
I'm not after perfection though, just something I can watch. The trouble is, I'm not looking for these faults, I just see them. (A bit like Home_bas and his 'dip'.)
In my own defense though, Squirrel God, it's not that I'm used to a poorly adjusted set. I actually measured the distortion on the widescreen TVs. (It was that obvious.) Also, in my in-store experiments most of the 4:3 TVs look fine, just like my existing 4:3 TV.
I just think that manufacturers should make sure their widescreen TVs are a little better adjusted, rather than me having to try to find some hidden service menu, (if possible!), or call out a service engineer!
After all, they seem to me to be able to do it on old-fashioned 4:3s TVs!
But I'll consider this if I decide to try another widescreen, and make sure I can get a free engineer's visit to correct the poor geometry, (or show me the service menu so I can tweak it myself).
Thanks again for the input.
Churdy,
I know precicely what you are talking about. I have found that many people are indifferent to what you are seeing. On several occasions I have seen this on displays even in "boutique" style shops. On a rare occassion the sales rep was unable to correct it. It isn't you or your old set. If you're looking at the globe at the beginning of a Universal Pictures dvd and it is round the set is properly adjusted. If not pefectly round the incorrect mode is the usual culprit. If that doesn't work then consider tweaking or having the service tech make the proper adjustments for you. If you are using a projector these adjustments are typically done during the installation.
The new sets, projectors, etc. need to be adjusted and have loads of modes. The correct one has to be found to correct the distortion you (and I) find so annoying.
Good luck
oops, duplicate post
Originally posted by Dan 41
If you're looking at the globe at the beginning of a Universal Pictures dvd and it is round the set is properly adjusted. If not pefectly round the incorrect mode is the usual culprit.
Well, of course, I was assuming that everyone would know which mode their TV should be set to (or it would auto-switch via scart) :|
Originally posted by churdy
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
Isn't part of the issue the fact that DVDs may output a widescreen picture but they aren't necessarily shot as 1.77(?):1?
Some are 2.35:1 and converted to produce a 16:9 picture. There is no set standard for a widescreen picture.
Originally posted by churdy
Philc and Peter UK,
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not trying to get 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen. In fact I don't want to. I only want to watch a presentation in its correct aspect ratio, (ie 4:3 as 4:3, 16:9 as 16:9). Nor am I talking about any particular mode, as the problem I'm trying to describe seems to me to occur in all modes. (I've seen the mode you describe also Peter, [I believe some manufacturers call it 'justified'], and I can't bear it either).
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
The problem I notice is that this isn't the case. On the widescreen TVs I've seen the circle would be shown as being wider than it is high. (You can see this by comparing a 4:3 image displayed in 4:3 mode on a widescreen, and the same image displayed on a conventional 4:3 TV next to it. [Comet, Currys, Asda, all places where a lot of TVs are on display side by side showing the same picture, are good places to try this experiment.])
So if you're watching 'The Matrix' for instance, normally, (when stood up), Trinity looks too short and squat, but when she dives through the window in the opening chase sequence, and is horizontal on the screen, she looks tall and thin.
Someone else must have noticed this!
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Originally posted by zebs
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Yeah, yet to find a single shop that sets their stuff up properly. Harrods even had COMPOSITE going into their plasma's a while ago when I had a scout round. :brickwall
i have even been in a aseven oaks shop who had wired a arcam dvd setup into the tv using composite through a switching board and this was for a demo
Originally posted by zebs
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Exactly
It sounds to me like you have not set your DVD player for your display. Hence why circles don't look circular, but more elliptical.
Hi, Churdy here.
Can I try to set the record straight?
From some of the replies I've had it seems many people still don't understand what I'm saying. (Which may be down to me not describing it well enough, so I'll give it another go! :brickwall )
The problem I'm talking about is nothing to do with the image source, (DVD player, digibox, or terrestrial transmission), and the WSTV not being set to output and display, respectively, in the same aspect ratio mode. This is a problem I have noticed on a large number of WSTVs when displaying a transmission in the correct mode for that transmission! (i.e. 16:9 transmission in WSTV 16:9 display mode, 4:3 transmission in WSTV 4:3 display mode!)
It's like watching a 4:3 transmission displayed in 16:9 mode, (where images are stretched to fill the screen, and thus appear to wide and/or fat), but not as pronounced. The image is, however, still stretched in the horizontal plane compared to it's height in the vertical plane.
This is definitely a problem with the manufacturer's adjustment of the height to width ratio of the various display modes of the WSTV. This ratio should always be 1:1 for any given mode, but unfortunately isn't on most of the WSTVs I've seen. (As each mode seems to be independantly adjusted, the extent of this effect varies from mode to mode.)
The best advice I think to come out of this is to either find out how you access the service menu and adjust the display modes yourself, or get it professionally adjusted by a suitably qualified engineer.
I'm pleased so many people have been interested enough to reply to this thread, and thank you for your input. I shall, if I ever get round to moving from my trusty 4:3 to a WS, try to ensure I can get it professionally adjusted for free as part of the purchase agreement!!!
Thanks again,
Churdy. :thumbs:
Originally posted by churdy
Hi, Churdy here.
Can I try to set the record straight?
From some of the replies I've had it seems many people still don't understand what I'm saying. (Which may be down to me not describing it well enough, so I'll give it another go! :brickwall )
Thanks again,
Churdy. :thumbs:
:lol: :clap: :notworthy
Churdy from the last explanation I totally understand your issue.
What you are noticing is the fact that the pixel aspect ratio of 4:3 and 16:9 sets differs.
Both sets have non-square pixels.
Let me show you the math
For the 625/50 format there are 576 active lines each with 720 samples of which 702 are visible so the pixel aspect ratio is
576/702 x 4/3 =1.094
(ie the pixels are 9% wider than they are tall)
With Widescreen format
576/702 x 16/9=1.458
(ie even wider than that of the 4:3 set)
So as you can see the fact that the aspect ratio is different is bound to look different.
Oh and to compensate for the pixel difference the manufacturer will have their own processing and mathematical representation which will in turn cause people like you to moan :lol:
Philc,
Forget the 4:3 TV. Although I agree about there being no more pixels displayed on a 16:9 TV than on a 4:3 one, and therefore each pixel being relatively wider in 16:9 mode than in 4:3 mode, this has nothing to do with my problem. I am only comparing 4:3 sets to 16:9 sets in as much as they are adjusted correctly , (or at least better). Also, what you describe would mean using the full width of the 16:9 screen to display the image, and would result in a relative difference of around 33%, (obviously, as it's the ratio of 16:9 to 4:3 i.e. 16/12!!!), and this is what you get when viewing a 4:3 source displayed in 16:9 mode. This isn't what I'm talking about!!! What I'm talking about is everything being displayed a little too wide on 16:9 TVs, even though I'm viewing it in the appropriate display mode!!! (In which case it shouldn't matter what shape the pixels are, as it's just about the adjustments that are made to render a properly proportioned image on screen.) And in any case, if I'm viewing a 4:3 source in 4:3 mode, then the pixels should be 'squashed' to the same pixel ratio as on a 4:3 TV!!
I know some people don't care if images are properly proportioned, but I do. (Seeing the apparent dimensions of someone's face, head or body alter as they move on sceen makes me a little nauseous, and certainly detracts from my ability to enjoy my viewing as I like to be able to watch without my attention constantly being drawn to the mal-adjustment of the image, let alone the afore-mentioned nausea!!!)
So I stand by my comments. Manufacturers don't, by and large, set up their widescreen products properly. (But they should!)
And I have never disagreed, that in their calculations to do this there will inevitably be discrepancies of which we talk about.
churdy ... you seem to be getting in a tizz about something which most other folks don't seem to be affected by, or for one reason or another don't notice.
My Toshiba suffered from wonky pics to start with, but a bit of patience and some tweaking in the service menu all but ironed them out. I could never get rid of the annoying RGB shift though. After setting it all up right I didn't have any problems with elliptical circles (if you get my drift) and I suspect you wouldn't if you got your set calibrated correctly.
There's a slight kink to the bottom right on my new Panasonic set, but it isn't noticeable for 99.5% of the time, so I'll probably not fig about with the service menu. Overall though the only gripe about the auto switching mode on the TV is that it keeps telling me which mode it has switched to. Totally unnecessary in my view and quite annoying when it adjusts quite often with the variable ratios used on TV and in adverts.
So, you're right that these things should be shipped with perfect geometry etc, but they invariably aren't. So a bit of self-help goes a long way. It is certainly less stressful and hassle than repeatedly sending sets back ...
Dear All,
Just to wind this up...
Yeah, I know most people either don't notice this or don't care. Unfortunately I can't help but notice it, and also can't ignore it as it draws my attention at a subliminal level.
The answer is, as many have said, to adjust my set from a service menu, or get someone to do it for me.
At the time, however, I had no idea that WSTVs even had service menus, and the normal menus available just didn't allow you to set the geometry. Yeah, taking them back might seem rash, but there's more to it than simply that. The first one, aside from poor geometry, also had a generally lousy picture, so I assumed it was just duff. The second one had better picture quality, but still poor geometry, and I just thought this was ridiculous, and as my existing 4:3 TV had a perfectly acceptable picture anyway, I thought, "Save your money, and stick with letterboxing", (which doesn't actually bother me visually anyway).
It was only after some looking around that I noticed very few WSTVs seem to be properly adjusted that I thought I'd ask in the Forums, as I'd never noticed anyone else mention it.
So, if I ever decide to try a16:9 TV again, I'll bear in mind the advice about service menus and adjustment, and try to ensure that I can either find the service menu, or get a professional service engineer to adjust the thing properly for me as part of the purchase agreement!
Thanks again.
Churdy.
Or just make sure that you go and view the various modes offered by different manufacturers.
Just go and buy a Loewe TV and you will have no worries.
:clap:
This applies to 16:9 images viewed in 16:9 mode and 4:3 images viewed in 4:3 mode equally.
I know some people are quite happy to watch a 4:3 image in 16:9 mode, (I know people who can't even tell when they are watching a 4:3 image which is being displayed as 16:9!), so this effect probably wouldn't bother them. But it bothers me. (To the extent that I've had to return 2 widescreen TVs already as I couldn't bear to watch them.)
If anyone else shares my view, and knows why manufacturers do this, or any that don't and actually display a properly proportioned image on screen, perhaps they'd like to add their comments.
Answers:
There should be a setting on your WSTV which will pan the 4:3 image and allow it to almost fill the screen. You will undoubtedly lose some of the vertical picture but it looks almost as good as the 4:3 image on the same set.
Dependent on the WSTV, the modes will differ. I have the Loewe Aconda and I set mine to an auto mode and dictate that all 4:3 images will be put into the fill mode and I can live with it. I know that som of the other sets do not allow this and their modes look terrible.
Maybe you ought to consider getting an 4:3 RPTV to account for your dislikes.
Answers:
My JVC has a setting that expands a 4:3 picture to fill the screen but distorts the sides only and leaves the centre pretty much alone - looks fine most of the time.
Now I have a Freeview box it's less of a problem now :p
Answers:
Philc and Peter UK,
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not trying to get 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen. In fact I don't want to. I only want to watch a presentation in its correct aspect ratio, (ie 4:3 as 4:3, 16:9 as 16:9). Nor am I talking about any particular mode, as the problem I'm trying to describe seems to me to occur in all modes. (I've seen the mode you describe also Peter, [I believe some manufacturers call it 'justified'], and I can't bear it either).
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
The problem I notice is that this isn't the case. On the widescreen TVs I've seen the circle would be shown as being wider than it is high. (You can see this by comparing a 4:3 image displayed in 4:3 mode on a widescreen, and the same image displayed on a conventional 4:3 TV next to it. [Comet, Currys, Asda, all places where a lot of TVs are on display side by side showing the same picture, are good places to try this experiment.])
So if you're watching 'The Matrix' for instance, normally, (when stood up), Trinity looks too short and squat, but when she dives through the window in the opening chase sequence, and is horizontal on the screen, she looks tall and thin.
Someone else must have noticed this!
Answers:
I think it's likely that your previous display was incorrectly set so you are now seeing everything different and think it's the current TV which is wrong.
However, if you are checking this correctly using something like THX Optimode (for BOTH PAL and NTSC separately, because the geometry will be different, regardless of whether or not there are separate geometry adjustments available for PAL and NTSC) then it's just a case of going into the service menu of the TV and tweaking it.
Returning sets because it's out of whack a little here is totally unnecesary. If you can't tweak yourself, then get the engineer round. If you expect perfection from a TV without a bit of tweaking then you have an infinitely long wait before you keep any TV. In fact, if you expect perfection at all, you'll be sorely disappointed - it doesn't exist.
Answers:
Have to agree with Squirrel God - even with no end of fiddling you'll never get it *perfect* on a CRT...
I had to play when my DVD player introduced a nasty left-shift through RGB, and after going in the service mode I found:
- NTSC was underscanning, i.e. too narrow for the screen
- PAL was MASSIVELY overscanning
- Each widescreen mode has geometry for both PAL and NTSC, so it took me AGES to get where I am!
Even after all this plus more tweaking, there is a slight 'dip' in the picture at the top of my screen on NTSC (totally un-noticable to everyone bu me), plus some 'wonky pillar' effects at the sides.
The more you look the more you you find, it's not worth trying to find faults cos they just bug the hell out of you! You just have to live with this or get a plasma I'm afraid - nature of the CRT beast!
Answers:
Squirrel god and Home_bas,
Thanks for your replies. I had sort of assumed it was because the TVs I'd bought were cheap. I also sort of assumed TV adjustment was still a case of twiddling knobs inside, but guess I ought really to have realised times have moved on in this respect. (After all, DVD players are full of hidden menus!)
I'm not after perfection though, just something I can watch. The trouble is, I'm not looking for these faults, I just see them. (A bit like Home_bas and his 'dip'.)
In my own defense though, Squirrel God, it's not that I'm used to a poorly adjusted set. I actually measured the distortion on the widescreen TVs. (It was that obvious.) Also, in my in-store experiments most of the 4:3 TVs look fine, just like my existing 4:3 TV.
I just think that manufacturers should make sure their widescreen TVs are a little better adjusted, rather than me having to try to find some hidden service menu, (if possible!), or call out a service engineer!
After all, they seem to me to be able to do it on old-fashioned 4:3s TVs!
But I'll consider this if I decide to try another widescreen, and make sure I can get a free engineer's visit to correct the poor geometry, (or show me the service menu so I can tweak it myself).
Thanks again for the input.
Answers:
Churdy,
I know precicely what you are talking about. I have found that many people are indifferent to what you are seeing. On several occasions I have seen this on displays even in "boutique" style shops. On a rare occassion the sales rep was unable to correct it. It isn't you or your old set. If you're looking at the globe at the beginning of a Universal Pictures dvd and it is round the set is properly adjusted. If not pefectly round the incorrect mode is the usual culprit. If that doesn't work then consider tweaking or having the service tech make the proper adjustments for you. If you are using a projector these adjustments are typically done during the installation.
The new sets, projectors, etc. need to be adjusted and have loads of modes. The correct one has to be found to correct the distortion you (and I) find so annoying.
Good luck
Answers:
oops, duplicate post
Answers:
Originally posted by Dan 41
If you're looking at the globe at the beginning of a Universal Pictures dvd and it is round the set is properly adjusted. If not pefectly round the incorrect mode is the usual culprit.
Well, of course, I was assuming that everyone would know which mode their TV should be set to (or it would auto-switch via scart) :|
Answers:
Originally posted by churdy
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
Isn't part of the issue the fact that DVDs may output a widescreen picture but they aren't necessarily shot as 1.77(?):1?
Some are 2.35:1 and converted to produce a 16:9 picture. There is no set standard for a widescreen picture.
Answers:
Originally posted by churdy
Philc and Peter UK,
I don't think you understand my point. I'm not trying to get 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen. In fact I don't want to. I only want to watch a presentation in its correct aspect ratio, (ie 4:3 as 4:3, 16:9 as 16:9). Nor am I talking about any particular mode, as the problem I'm trying to describe seems to me to occur in all modes. (I've seen the mode you describe also Peter, [I believe some manufacturers call it 'justified'], and I can't bear it either).
All I want is for the height and width of an object to be displayed with a 1:1 ratio. This applies to all modes. So, if I were watching say, a DVD, (which outputs a 16:9 picture), in 16:9 mode on the TV, and a circle was being shown on screen, I'd expect the height and width of the image of the circle to be equal. (The same would apply to a 4:3 image shown in 4:3 mode.)
The problem I notice is that this isn't the case. On the widescreen TVs I've seen the circle would be shown as being wider than it is high. (You can see this by comparing a 4:3 image displayed in 4:3 mode on a widescreen, and the same image displayed on a conventional 4:3 TV next to it. [Comet, Currys, Asda, all places where a lot of TVs are on display side by side showing the same picture, are good places to try this experiment.])
So if you're watching 'The Matrix' for instance, normally, (when stood up), Trinity looks too short and squat, but when she dives through the window in the opening chase sequence, and is horizontal on the screen, she looks tall and thin.
Someone else must have noticed this!
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Answers:
Originally posted by zebs
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Yeah, yet to find a single shop that sets their stuff up properly. Harrods even had COMPOSITE going into their plasma's a while ago when I had a scout round. :brickwall
Answers:
i have even been in a aseven oaks shop who had wired a arcam dvd setup into the tv using composite through a switching board and this was for a demo
Answers:
Originally posted by zebs
Don't forget when watching a DVD on a widescreen set that the DVD Player output needs to be set for 16:9, not 4:3 or 4:3PS - the chances of this being so in a shop demo situation are about Zero minus 50:nuts:
Exactly
It sounds to me like you have not set your DVD player for your display. Hence why circles don't look circular, but more elliptical.
Answers:
Hi, Churdy here.
Can I try to set the record straight?
From some of the replies I've had it seems many people still don't understand what I'm saying. (Which may be down to me not describing it well enough, so I'll give it another go! :brickwall )
The problem I'm talking about is nothing to do with the image source, (DVD player, digibox, or terrestrial transmission), and the WSTV not being set to output and display, respectively, in the same aspect ratio mode. This is a problem I have noticed on a large number of WSTVs when displaying a transmission in the correct mode for that transmission! (i.e. 16:9 transmission in WSTV 16:9 display mode, 4:3 transmission in WSTV 4:3 display mode!)
It's like watching a 4:3 transmission displayed in 16:9 mode, (where images are stretched to fill the screen, and thus appear to wide and/or fat), but not as pronounced. The image is, however, still stretched in the horizontal plane compared to it's height in the vertical plane.
This is definitely a problem with the manufacturer's adjustment of the height to width ratio of the various display modes of the WSTV. This ratio should always be 1:1 for any given mode, but unfortunately isn't on most of the WSTVs I've seen. (As each mode seems to be independantly adjusted, the extent of this effect varies from mode to mode.)
The best advice I think to come out of this is to either find out how you access the service menu and adjust the display modes yourself, or get it professionally adjusted by a suitably qualified engineer.
I'm pleased so many people have been interested enough to reply to this thread, and thank you for your input. I shall, if I ever get round to moving from my trusty 4:3 to a WS, try to ensure I can get it professionally adjusted for free as part of the purchase agreement!!!
Thanks again,
Churdy. :thumbs:
Answers:
Originally posted by churdy
Hi, Churdy here.
Can I try to set the record straight?
From some of the replies I've had it seems many people still don't understand what I'm saying. (Which may be down to me not describing it well enough, so I'll give it another go! :brickwall )
Thanks again,
Churdy. :thumbs:
:lol: :clap: :notworthy
Answers:
Churdy from the last explanation I totally understand your issue.
What you are noticing is the fact that the pixel aspect ratio of 4:3 and 16:9 sets differs.
Both sets have non-square pixels.
Let me show you the math
For the 625/50 format there are 576 active lines each with 720 samples of which 702 are visible so the pixel aspect ratio is
576/702 x 4/3 =1.094
(ie the pixels are 9% wider than they are tall)
With Widescreen format
576/702 x 16/9=1.458
(ie even wider than that of the 4:3 set)
So as you can see the fact that the aspect ratio is different is bound to look different.
Answers:
Oh and to compensate for the pixel difference the manufacturer will have their own processing and mathematical representation which will in turn cause people like you to moan :lol:
Answers:
Philc,
Forget the 4:3 TV. Although I agree about there being no more pixels displayed on a 16:9 TV than on a 4:3 one, and therefore each pixel being relatively wider in 16:9 mode than in 4:3 mode, this has nothing to do with my problem. I am only comparing 4:3 sets to 16:9 sets in as much as they are adjusted correctly , (or at least better). Also, what you describe would mean using the full width of the 16:9 screen to display the image, and would result in a relative difference of around 33%, (obviously, as it's the ratio of 16:9 to 4:3 i.e. 16/12!!!), and this is what you get when viewing a 4:3 source displayed in 16:9 mode. This isn't what I'm talking about!!! What I'm talking about is everything being displayed a little too wide on 16:9 TVs, even though I'm viewing it in the appropriate display mode!!! (In which case it shouldn't matter what shape the pixels are, as it's just about the adjustments that are made to render a properly proportioned image on screen.) And in any case, if I'm viewing a 4:3 source in 4:3 mode, then the pixels should be 'squashed' to the same pixel ratio as on a 4:3 TV!!
I know some people don't care if images are properly proportioned, but I do. (Seeing the apparent dimensions of someone's face, head or body alter as they move on sceen makes me a little nauseous, and certainly detracts from my ability to enjoy my viewing as I like to be able to watch without my attention constantly being drawn to the mal-adjustment of the image, let alone the afore-mentioned nausea!!!)
So I stand by my comments. Manufacturers don't, by and large, set up their widescreen products properly. (But they should!)
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And I have never disagreed, that in their calculations to do this there will inevitably be discrepancies of which we talk about.
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churdy ... you seem to be getting in a tizz about something which most other folks don't seem to be affected by, or for one reason or another don't notice.
My Toshiba suffered from wonky pics to start with, but a bit of patience and some tweaking in the service menu all but ironed them out. I could never get rid of the annoying RGB shift though. After setting it all up right I didn't have any problems with elliptical circles (if you get my drift) and I suspect you wouldn't if you got your set calibrated correctly.
There's a slight kink to the bottom right on my new Panasonic set, but it isn't noticeable for 99.5% of the time, so I'll probably not fig about with the service menu. Overall though the only gripe about the auto switching mode on the TV is that it keeps telling me which mode it has switched to. Totally unnecessary in my view and quite annoying when it adjusts quite often with the variable ratios used on TV and in adverts.
So, you're right that these things should be shipped with perfect geometry etc, but they invariably aren't. So a bit of self-help goes a long way. It is certainly less stressful and hassle than repeatedly sending sets back ...
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Dear All,
Just to wind this up...
Yeah, I know most people either don't notice this or don't care. Unfortunately I can't help but notice it, and also can't ignore it as it draws my attention at a subliminal level.
The answer is, as many have said, to adjust my set from a service menu, or get someone to do it for me.
At the time, however, I had no idea that WSTVs even had service menus, and the normal menus available just didn't allow you to set the geometry. Yeah, taking them back might seem rash, but there's more to it than simply that. The first one, aside from poor geometry, also had a generally lousy picture, so I assumed it was just duff. The second one had better picture quality, but still poor geometry, and I just thought this was ridiculous, and as my existing 4:3 TV had a perfectly acceptable picture anyway, I thought, "Save your money, and stick with letterboxing", (which doesn't actually bother me visually anyway).
It was only after some looking around that I noticed very few WSTVs seem to be properly adjusted that I thought I'd ask in the Forums, as I'd never noticed anyone else mention it.
So, if I ever decide to try a16:9 TV again, I'll bear in mind the advice about service menus and adjustment, and try to ensure that I can either find the service menu, or get a professional service engineer to adjust the thing properly for me as part of the purchase agreement!
Thanks again.
Churdy.
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Or just make sure that you go and view the various modes offered by different manufacturers.
Just go and buy a Loewe TV and you will have no worries.
:clap:
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