Question:
When watching 2.35:1 dvds I get a bigger picture in NTSC than I do for PAL. In other words the black bars at the top and bottom are smaller on NTSC soruces than PAL. :confused:
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think!
Originally posted by wonderpants
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think! ....and this has what exactly to do with the question? A Microsoft (TM) comment. Almost accurate, but completely irrelevant.
In answer to your question - probably because the TV wasn't properly calibrated for an NTSC source at the factory. It needs its height adjusting.
Originally posted by wonderpants
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think! Er, othe way around, NTSC uses 480 lines and PAL uses 576 lines for picture information:D(the 525/625 figures you may here include the "lines" used up in the front/back porches and verticle sync, its where they stuff the information for teletext/closed captions as well).
Anyway, back to the question, you will probably notice that there is some variation in the height of "2.35" transfers even within PAL/NTSC, due to how much side boxing is included to combat overscan and that even though they say 2.35 very few are precisely 2.35.
Plus the width probably changes with PAL/NTSC a bit as well as the height.
I always thought it was something to do with the spacing between lines in NTSC mode... but I know what you mean, NTSC does seem a bit 'bigger'.
So its not just me then ?.
No it isn't just you - but I should've said I also agree that aspect ratios are not an exact science. It is true that titles are mastered differently to compensate for overscan.
A good example of this is to find a NON-anamorphic disc, bung your TV in 4:3 mode and take note of everything you can see at the extreme left and right. Then zoom up to 16:9 and watch as probably ~1cm vanishes off the sides of the screen!
Another good way to look at this is to watch DVDs on a laptop or PC, sometimes you'll find titles that have black space at the left and right (as well as the usual bars top and bottom), again prob ~1cm ish depending on screen size. Its likely you won't see this on your telly though.
But anyway, none of it is anything to worry about!
Originally posted by Mr Nice
NTSC uses 480 lines and PAL uses 576 lines for picture information:D(the 525/625 figures you may here include the "lines" used up in the front/back porches and verticle sync, its where they stuff the information for teletext/closed captions as well).
That's interesting.After all this time I didn't realise that.
So DVD and DV/Digital 8 are closer to broadcast quality than I thought.No wonder they look so good.
Do you know the figures for HDTV,not that we're going to get it though?
ALL PAL sources use 576 lines visible (625 actual), and interlaced
But this is horizontal lines - the resolution figures typically quoted for various formats are the amount of vertical lines it can resolve.
DVD (typically around 500, but some like Toshiba claim 540), approaches the maximum that the PAL format is capable of (540 lines - vertical lines that is). VHS on the other hand, can only manage about 250 (270 for a very good one) - SVHS about 400.
It's not an exact method, but it's the one that's used.
Originally posted by MikeK
ALL PAL sources use 576 lines visible (625 actual), and interlaced
But this is horizontal lines - the resolution figures typically quoted for various formats are the amount of vertical lines it can resolve.
DVD (typically around 500, but some like Toshiba claim 540), approaches the maximum that the PAL format is capable of (540 lines - vertical lines that is). VHS on the other hand, can only manage about 250 (270 for a very good one) - SVHS about 400.
It's not an exact method, but it's the one that's used. Actually, IMO the "vertical lines" measure is one of the most misleading statistics ever. Due to its origins, in an attempt to not be aspect ratio dependent, it measures resolvable lines in the largest circle you can fit in the image. In other words, since tvs(traditional ones) are 4:3, it effectively multiplies the "real" horizontal resolution by 3/4, this is where the "540 vertical lines" figure for DVD's comes from, DVDs have 720 pixels horizontally, so 3/4 * 720=540.
Now when all tvs were 4:3 the fact that it multiplied down didn't really matter, since the figures were still comparable.
But along came 16:9 tvs and anamorphic DVDs, and you ended up with statements like "anamorphic DVDs have 405 vertical lines of resolution", because, 9/16 * 720=405. Gah, I'm sure to industry types this all makes sense, but when these figures enter the public domain, the derivation gets lost, so you get stupid arguments about whether DVDs have a horizontal resolution of 720, 540, or possibly only 405.
Oh, and not all PAL formats have 576 horizontal lines of resolution;). VCDs are non-interlaced and just repeat the same image for the even and odd lines, so PAL VCDs have 288 horizontal lines of res and NTSC 240.
True, but the PAL image is still 576 lines (whether or not the format just repeats all the odd numbered fields).
So 288x2 still equals 576.
The VCD format may not store 576 lines, but it will still output 576 visible lines to a PAL TV
The PAL format output to a PAL TV is always 576 horizontal lines visible, plus the 49 used for flyback etc - the source itself can actually have any resolution it likes as long as it still outputs 576(625) horizontal lines (interlaced) to the TV.
I was just pointing out that the 576 horizontal lines, isn't actually what is meant when people quote the resolution for DVD, VHS etc etc.
Re: your comments about the way TV resolution is measured, I couldn't agree more, but that's what we're stuck with at the moment.
As for DVDs and anamorphic enhancement in general - again I agree, it can get very confusing
Sadly, it's even more confusing than that in reality.
A TV image can have very low resolution in reality, but still be made up of 576 horizontal lines - a plain white screen for instance, in reality has no vertical or horizontal resolution at all in the strict sense, but it's still made up from 576 horizontal lines :).
Then you get into all sorts of debates about frame resolution vs actual image resolution.
It's a minefield ;) :D
I suppose the easiest way to think of it is that a PAL frame always has 720x576 resolution, but the image contained in that frame could have any resolution, from none at all up to a max of 720x576.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by MikeK
I suppose the easiest way to think of it is that a PAL frame always has 720x576 resolution.
True for the 576 part but in principle there is no true maximum to the horizontal resolution, it depends on both the format of the source and the method of transmitting the signal, and indeed how fast the tv/projector whatever can respond to changes.Originally posted by MikeK
but the image contained in that frame could have any resolution, from none at all up to a max of 720x576.
Well for digital formats, which lets face it is what matters now, I think its best just to quote the pixel resolution of the source format, so you say that a pal DVD is 720x576 and a pal VCD is 352x288.
Glad I've found someone else though who understands exactly what "vertical lines of resolution" means;).
Originally posted by AndyH
No it isn't just you - but I should've said I also agree that aspect ratios are not an exact science. It is true that titles are mastered differently to compensate for overscan.
A good example of this is to find a NON-anamorphic disc, bung your TV in 4:3 mode and take note of everything you can see at the extreme left and right. Then zoom up to 16:9 and watch as probably ~1cm vanishes off the sides of the screen!
I got a feeling it might be that my TV isnt out putting NTSC and instead is doing somekind of PAL conversion of NTSC sources ?.
Can I test if the TV is out putting true NTSC ?.
The description says NTSC 3.58/4.43MHz compatible for my TV but I aint got clue what theat means.
Jimmyboy.
What model TV/DVD is it?
Your TV can output Pure NTSC from the spec you mention,but does your DVD player?
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Jimmyboy.
What model TV/DVD is it?
Your TV can output Pure NTSC from the spec you mention,but does your DVD player?
Same as you I think mate PhilipsPW6006 but the 28" version.
My dvd player does out put NTSC, but NTSC transfers are bigger in screen size and seem to be noticabley poorer in quality than PAL which is why I wondered if the TV is doing somekind of PAL conversion.
The screen does flash dark green before and after player an NTSC dvd, don't know if that means anything ?.
My dvd player is a budget model (LG) so maybe thats the problem.
As you may know,I've got the 32in Philips 6006 TV with a Sony 725 DVD player.When I play my R1 NTSC Virus DVD,I have no probs with the films ratio or quality,which is excellent.However,when you use the TV's onscreen Menu,the writing does become much bigger.
Interesting.
I just set my dvd player to psuendo? PAL only and all the issues with the poor NTSC transfer disappears. When I set my player to out put pure NTSC I get poor contrasting, bright reds, & pixlated fleshtones.
I guess either my dvd player isnt very good at sending out the NTSC signal, My Philips set isnt very good at receiving NTSC, or its something to do with the RGB connection. PAL seems ok though.
Do you know the figures for HDTV,not that we're going to get it though?
There are a few standards for HD but the most commonly agreed one is 1920 x 1080(i) interlaced.
I have worked with Panasonic's 720p (progressive) variable frame rate which allows shooting from 6fps to 60fps.
Answers:
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think!
Answers:
Originally posted by wonderpants
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think! ....and this has what exactly to do with the question? A Microsoft (TM) comment. Almost accurate, but completely irrelevant.
In answer to your question - probably because the TV wasn't properly calibrated for an NTSC source at the factory. It needs its height adjusting.
Answers:
Originally posted by wonderpants
PAL uses 100 lines less than NTSC i think! Er, othe way around, NTSC uses 480 lines and PAL uses 576 lines for picture information:D(the 525/625 figures you may here include the "lines" used up in the front/back porches and verticle sync, its where they stuff the information for teletext/closed captions as well).
Anyway, back to the question, you will probably notice that there is some variation in the height of "2.35" transfers even within PAL/NTSC, due to how much side boxing is included to combat overscan and that even though they say 2.35 very few are precisely 2.35.
Plus the width probably changes with PAL/NTSC a bit as well as the height.
Answers:
I always thought it was something to do with the spacing between lines in NTSC mode... but I know what you mean, NTSC does seem a bit 'bigger'.
Answers:
So its not just me then ?.
Answers:
No it isn't just you - but I should've said I also agree that aspect ratios are not an exact science. It is true that titles are mastered differently to compensate for overscan.
A good example of this is to find a NON-anamorphic disc, bung your TV in 4:3 mode and take note of everything you can see at the extreme left and right. Then zoom up to 16:9 and watch as probably ~1cm vanishes off the sides of the screen!
Another good way to look at this is to watch DVDs on a laptop or PC, sometimes you'll find titles that have black space at the left and right (as well as the usual bars top and bottom), again prob ~1cm ish depending on screen size. Its likely you won't see this on your telly though.
But anyway, none of it is anything to worry about!
Answers:
Originally posted by Mr Nice
NTSC uses 480 lines and PAL uses 576 lines for picture information:D(the 525/625 figures you may here include the "lines" used up in the front/back porches and verticle sync, its where they stuff the information for teletext/closed captions as well).
That's interesting.After all this time I didn't realise that.
So DVD and DV/Digital 8 are closer to broadcast quality than I thought.No wonder they look so good.
Do you know the figures for HDTV,not that we're going to get it though?
Answers:
ALL PAL sources use 576 lines visible (625 actual), and interlaced
But this is horizontal lines - the resolution figures typically quoted for various formats are the amount of vertical lines it can resolve.
DVD (typically around 500, but some like Toshiba claim 540), approaches the maximum that the PAL format is capable of (540 lines - vertical lines that is). VHS on the other hand, can only manage about 250 (270 for a very good one) - SVHS about 400.
It's not an exact method, but it's the one that's used.
Answers:
Originally posted by MikeK
ALL PAL sources use 576 lines visible (625 actual), and interlaced
But this is horizontal lines - the resolution figures typically quoted for various formats are the amount of vertical lines it can resolve.
DVD (typically around 500, but some like Toshiba claim 540), approaches the maximum that the PAL format is capable of (540 lines - vertical lines that is). VHS on the other hand, can only manage about 250 (270 for a very good one) - SVHS about 400.
It's not an exact method, but it's the one that's used. Actually, IMO the "vertical lines" measure is one of the most misleading statistics ever. Due to its origins, in an attempt to not be aspect ratio dependent, it measures resolvable lines in the largest circle you can fit in the image. In other words, since tvs(traditional ones) are 4:3, it effectively multiplies the "real" horizontal resolution by 3/4, this is where the "540 vertical lines" figure for DVD's comes from, DVDs have 720 pixels horizontally, so 3/4 * 720=540.
Now when all tvs were 4:3 the fact that it multiplied down didn't really matter, since the figures were still comparable.
But along came 16:9 tvs and anamorphic DVDs, and you ended up with statements like "anamorphic DVDs have 405 vertical lines of resolution", because, 9/16 * 720=405. Gah, I'm sure to industry types this all makes sense, but when these figures enter the public domain, the derivation gets lost, so you get stupid arguments about whether DVDs have a horizontal resolution of 720, 540, or possibly only 405.
Oh, and not all PAL formats have 576 horizontal lines of resolution;). VCDs are non-interlaced and just repeat the same image for the even and odd lines, so PAL VCDs have 288 horizontal lines of res and NTSC 240.
Answers:
True, but the PAL image is still 576 lines (whether or not the format just repeats all the odd numbered fields).
So 288x2 still equals 576.
The VCD format may not store 576 lines, but it will still output 576 visible lines to a PAL TV
The PAL format output to a PAL TV is always 576 horizontal lines visible, plus the 49 used for flyback etc - the source itself can actually have any resolution it likes as long as it still outputs 576(625) horizontal lines (interlaced) to the TV.
I was just pointing out that the 576 horizontal lines, isn't actually what is meant when people quote the resolution for DVD, VHS etc etc.
Re: your comments about the way TV resolution is measured, I couldn't agree more, but that's what we're stuck with at the moment.
As for DVDs and anamorphic enhancement in general - again I agree, it can get very confusing
Sadly, it's even more confusing than that in reality.
A TV image can have very low resolution in reality, but still be made up of 576 horizontal lines - a plain white screen for instance, in reality has no vertical or horizontal resolution at all in the strict sense, but it's still made up from 576 horizontal lines :).
Then you get into all sorts of debates about frame resolution vs actual image resolution.
It's a minefield ;) :D
I suppose the easiest way to think of it is that a PAL frame always has 720x576 resolution, but the image contained in that frame could have any resolution, from none at all up to a max of 720x576.
Answers:
[/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by MikeK
I suppose the easiest way to think of it is that a PAL frame always has 720x576 resolution.
True for the 576 part but in principle there is no true maximum to the horizontal resolution, it depends on both the format of the source and the method of transmitting the signal, and indeed how fast the tv/projector whatever can respond to changes.Originally posted by MikeK
but the image contained in that frame could have any resolution, from none at all up to a max of 720x576.
Well for digital formats, which lets face it is what matters now, I think its best just to quote the pixel resolution of the source format, so you say that a pal DVD is 720x576 and a pal VCD is 352x288.
Glad I've found someone else though who understands exactly what "vertical lines of resolution" means;).
Answers:
Originally posted by AndyH
No it isn't just you - but I should've said I also agree that aspect ratios are not an exact science. It is true that titles are mastered differently to compensate for overscan.
A good example of this is to find a NON-anamorphic disc, bung your TV in 4:3 mode and take note of everything you can see at the extreme left and right. Then zoom up to 16:9 and watch as probably ~1cm vanishes off the sides of the screen!
I got a feeling it might be that my TV isnt out putting NTSC and instead is doing somekind of PAL conversion of NTSC sources ?.
Can I test if the TV is out putting true NTSC ?.
The description says NTSC 3.58/4.43MHz compatible for my TV but I aint got clue what theat means.
Answers:
Jimmyboy.
What model TV/DVD is it?
Your TV can output Pure NTSC from the spec you mention,but does your DVD player?
Answers:
Originally posted by Wayne Moule
Jimmyboy.
What model TV/DVD is it?
Your TV can output Pure NTSC from the spec you mention,but does your DVD player?
Same as you I think mate PhilipsPW6006 but the 28" version.
My dvd player does out put NTSC, but NTSC transfers are bigger in screen size and seem to be noticabley poorer in quality than PAL which is why I wondered if the TV is doing somekind of PAL conversion.
The screen does flash dark green before and after player an NTSC dvd, don't know if that means anything ?.
My dvd player is a budget model (LG) so maybe thats the problem.
Answers:
As you may know,I've got the 32in Philips 6006 TV with a Sony 725 DVD player.When I play my R1 NTSC Virus DVD,I have no probs with the films ratio or quality,which is excellent.However,when you use the TV's onscreen Menu,the writing does become much bigger.
Answers:
Interesting.
I just set my dvd player to psuendo? PAL only and all the issues with the poor NTSC transfer disappears. When I set my player to out put pure NTSC I get poor contrasting, bright reds, & pixlated fleshtones.
I guess either my dvd player isnt very good at sending out the NTSC signal, My Philips set isnt very good at receiving NTSC, or its something to do with the RGB connection. PAL seems ok though.
Answers:
Do you know the figures for HDTV,not that we're going to get it though?
There are a few standards for HD but the most commonly agreed one is 1920 x 1080(i) interlaced.
I have worked with Panasonic's 720p (progressive) variable frame rate which allows shooting from 6fps to 60fps.
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