Question:
Just been looking into DTS and noticed DTS ES. As I understand it, this comes in two "flavours" Matrixed and Discret. I believe thae the discret version requires a rear centre speaker. But what about the matrixed version; does this need the extra speaker? Or can I use a normal DTS decoder / receiver with 5.1 speakers and the matrixed ES is created as a "Phantom" rear centre speaker?
Also, do the same rules apply for DD EX?
Cheers...
Yes, the matrix versions play back fine through normal 5.1 systems. The center rear is matrixed across the rear left/right channels, just like the front center is mixed across the left/right channels in pro logic.
Thanks...
So, Matrixed DTS creates a "Phantom" speaker? Also, how can I tell the difference between Matrixed and Discrete DTS ES...I haven't noticed it say on packaging etc.
With a 5.1 system, you won't see any benefit of DTS-ES but the discs will play. With a matrixed sound, the extra sound that would have been in the rear-centre channel will be played through the normal surrounds. With DTS-ES discrete, this extra information will be lost on a 5.1 system.
To get the benefits you'll need an extra speaker. The other difference is that discrete, having it's own channel, should be able to attain a better quality.
Okay, thanks for the info then. :)
Considered getting 6.1 sound, but have no where to put the centre rear speaker, as the sofa is right up against the rear wall, and can't really be put forward.
I'm also thinking of going for 6.1 but am unsure about discrete vs. matrix sound.
Has anybody had a demo yet?
Is there a big difference with having the extra speaker compared to having the sound matrixed from the surrounds?
Dolby EX is a matrixed format for the 6th channel.
I have the Denon 3801 and to be honest there is not much difference between DTS ES matrix and discrete. Usually if the amp has DTS ES, it would be able to decode both formats anyhow.
to get the best out of dd ex or dts es (matrix or discrete) you need the rear center speaker. what both formats do is take the surround back information which is matrixed between the rear left and rear right channel the amp decodes this extra info and outputs the surround back channel information to your back speaker, the advantage to this is that mixes that have the ex decoding on them eg lord of the rings also play on normal 5.1 systems. The dts es discrete version has the back channel as a separate channel ie its true 6.1 and is not matrixed.
I have the denon 2802 which has 6.1 decoding for both formats and it does make a difference to the whole movie experience.
I read somewhere that two speakers are recommended for the centre rear channel. I think this may have been a THX recommendation but i'm not sure. Something about diffusing the rear so that you don't hear it as a point source. If this is so, would one of those triangular two speaker jobbies (dipole?) be a good idea for the centre rear?
Originally posted by Ron Hill
I read somewhere that two speakers are recommended for the centre rear channel. I think this may have been a THX recommendation but i'm not sure. Something about diffusing the rear so that you don't hear it as a point source. If this is so, would one of those triangular two speaker jobbies (dipole?) be a good idea for the centre rear?
This is reccomended in the manual of my Pioneer 811 (which can output 7.1 with the 2 centre rears being mono), they say that it is because the human ear may mistake the centre rear if only one speaker as the front centre dur to it not being able to pick up directions very well down the centre plane (or something to that effect!).
Personally I'm gonna try it with 1 centre rear (still waiting for my speakers to arrive here from the UK :( ) and then see if I need the extra speaker at the back - I don't have much room so would prefer to not have to put the 7th speaker on.
i have the denon 3802 and have two rear channel but i dont know what half of it means i.e matrix and non etc....
Originally posted by jasonjames
i have the denon 3802 and have two rear channel but i dont know what half of it means i.e matrix and non etc....
Martixed - The channel (rear center in this case) has its signal "matrixed" (merged) in with the other channels (surround channels). Can be read - but onthing done with - by 5.1 decoders.
Discreet - The centre rear channel has is own encoding track and thus is ignored by non 6.1 decoders.
Dolby Pro Logic is an example of a Matrixed encoding system (along with DD-EX), DTS-ES is either matrixed or discreet.
All DTS-ES soundtracks are at least matrixed. DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 soundtracks are both matrixed and discrete, allowing backward compatibility with matrixed EX/ES processors. Dolby Digital Surround EX is exclusively matrixed.
With DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 soundtracks, the ES Discrete processor takes the discrete back surround channel and introduces it into the left and right surround channels reverse phased. This cancels out the matrixed information in these channels, leaving only the discrete channel, which is directed to the back surround speaker(s).
Matrix EX/ES decoders simply ignore the discrete channel and extract the matrixed surround information as normal from the surround channels.
Normal 5.1-channel processors leave the back surround channel intact in the surround channels. This information can be heard if the listener sits in the sweet spot between the two surround speakers, just as Dolby Surround soundtracks' surround content can be heard through a stereo only system as out of phase information.
Adam
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
Normal 5.1-channel processors leave the back surround channel intact in the surround channels. This information can be heard if the listener sits in the sweet spot between the two surround speakers, just as Dolby Surround soundtracks' surround content can be heard through a stereo only system as out of phase information.
Adam
So this would explain why we were getting sound coming from behind us on T2 and Gladiator DTS, even though we only have a 5.1 system! Can we expect this on most DTS movies then?
Can we expect this on most DTS movies then?
Certainly with DTS-ES soundtracks, and many non-ES/EX 5.1-channel soundtracks also. Back surround pans and cues aren't new; sound designers have been using them for decades. It's only the idea of directing this information to its own speaker array that's new.
Adam
I see. Clever stuff then! :) Sort of like a phatom centre rear speaker on 5.1 system then in some respects...
Also, do the same rules apply for DD EX?
Cheers...
Answers:
Yes, the matrix versions play back fine through normal 5.1 systems. The center rear is matrixed across the rear left/right channels, just like the front center is mixed across the left/right channels in pro logic.
Answers:
Thanks...
So, Matrixed DTS creates a "Phantom" speaker? Also, how can I tell the difference between Matrixed and Discrete DTS ES...I haven't noticed it say on packaging etc.
Answers:
With a 5.1 system, you won't see any benefit of DTS-ES but the discs will play. With a matrixed sound, the extra sound that would have been in the rear-centre channel will be played through the normal surrounds. With DTS-ES discrete, this extra information will be lost on a 5.1 system.
To get the benefits you'll need an extra speaker. The other difference is that discrete, having it's own channel, should be able to attain a better quality.
Answers:
Okay, thanks for the info then. :)
Considered getting 6.1 sound, but have no where to put the centre rear speaker, as the sofa is right up against the rear wall, and can't really be put forward.
Answers:
I'm also thinking of going for 6.1 but am unsure about discrete vs. matrix sound.
Has anybody had a demo yet?
Is there a big difference with having the extra speaker compared to having the sound matrixed from the surrounds?
Answers:
Dolby EX is a matrixed format for the 6th channel.
I have the Denon 3801 and to be honest there is not much difference between DTS ES matrix and discrete. Usually if the amp has DTS ES, it would be able to decode both formats anyhow.
Answers:
to get the best out of dd ex or dts es (matrix or discrete) you need the rear center speaker. what both formats do is take the surround back information which is matrixed between the rear left and rear right channel the amp decodes this extra info and outputs the surround back channel information to your back speaker, the advantage to this is that mixes that have the ex decoding on them eg lord of the rings also play on normal 5.1 systems. The dts es discrete version has the back channel as a separate channel ie its true 6.1 and is not matrixed.
I have the denon 2802 which has 6.1 decoding for both formats and it does make a difference to the whole movie experience.
Answers:
I read somewhere that two speakers are recommended for the centre rear channel. I think this may have been a THX recommendation but i'm not sure. Something about diffusing the rear so that you don't hear it as a point source. If this is so, would one of those triangular two speaker jobbies (dipole?) be a good idea for the centre rear?
Answers:
Originally posted by Ron Hill
I read somewhere that two speakers are recommended for the centre rear channel. I think this may have been a THX recommendation but i'm not sure. Something about diffusing the rear so that you don't hear it as a point source. If this is so, would one of those triangular two speaker jobbies (dipole?) be a good idea for the centre rear?
This is reccomended in the manual of my Pioneer 811 (which can output 7.1 with the 2 centre rears being mono), they say that it is because the human ear may mistake the centre rear if only one speaker as the front centre dur to it not being able to pick up directions very well down the centre plane (or something to that effect!).
Personally I'm gonna try it with 1 centre rear (still waiting for my speakers to arrive here from the UK :( ) and then see if I need the extra speaker at the back - I don't have much room so would prefer to not have to put the 7th speaker on.
Answers:
i have the denon 3802 and have two rear channel but i dont know what half of it means i.e matrix and non etc....
Answers:
Originally posted by jasonjames
i have the denon 3802 and have two rear channel but i dont know what half of it means i.e matrix and non etc....
Martixed - The channel (rear center in this case) has its signal "matrixed" (merged) in with the other channels (surround channels). Can be read - but onthing done with - by 5.1 decoders.
Discreet - The centre rear channel has is own encoding track and thus is ignored by non 6.1 decoders.
Dolby Pro Logic is an example of a Matrixed encoding system (along with DD-EX), DTS-ES is either matrixed or discreet.
Answers:
All DTS-ES soundtracks are at least matrixed. DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 soundtracks are both matrixed and discrete, allowing backward compatibility with matrixed EX/ES processors. Dolby Digital Surround EX is exclusively matrixed.
With DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 soundtracks, the ES Discrete processor takes the discrete back surround channel and introduces it into the left and right surround channels reverse phased. This cancels out the matrixed information in these channels, leaving only the discrete channel, which is directed to the back surround speaker(s).
Matrix EX/ES decoders simply ignore the discrete channel and extract the matrixed surround information as normal from the surround channels.
Normal 5.1-channel processors leave the back surround channel intact in the surround channels. This information can be heard if the listener sits in the sweet spot between the two surround speakers, just as Dolby Surround soundtracks' surround content can be heard through a stereo only system as out of phase information.
Adam
Answers:
Originally posted by Adam Barratt
Normal 5.1-channel processors leave the back surround channel intact in the surround channels. This information can be heard if the listener sits in the sweet spot between the two surround speakers, just as Dolby Surround soundtracks' surround content can be heard through a stereo only system as out of phase information.
Adam
So this would explain why we were getting sound coming from behind us on T2 and Gladiator DTS, even though we only have a 5.1 system! Can we expect this on most DTS movies then?
Answers:
Can we expect this on most DTS movies then?
Certainly with DTS-ES soundtracks, and many non-ES/EX 5.1-channel soundtracks also. Back surround pans and cues aren't new; sound designers have been using them for decades. It's only the idea of directing this information to its own speaker array that's new.
Adam
Answers:
I see. Clever stuff then! :) Sort of like a phatom centre rear speaker on 5.1 system then in some respects...
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