Question:
This is a long post, please read it all and try to help if you can, as The DVD Forums could be the first place this problem is uncovered.
I have recently bought a Yamaha RXV730RDS Amp, which claims to have full DD EX support and DTS ES compatable support. There is a possibility that it does not!!:mad:
A little background:-
1) I have set the Amp up as per the instruction manual and have double checked all the settings.
2) As part of the main display the amp has a small graphic which shows what speakers are being decoded. including the subwoofer there are seven small squares each containing a key indicating which speaker is represented, I will refer to this as the Speaker Graphic as I explain the problem.
The Problem:-
Having had my new amp delivered I was eager to try out it's capabilities, first disc in the player was R1 Terminator II - Ultimate Edition. I selected the DTS-ES soundtrack and sat back. The Amp's Main Display changed to "DTS-ES" and the Speaker Graphic shows all 6 speakers and the sub are being used. Great!
Switch soundtracks to DD EX. Main Display shows "Dolby D EX" Speaker Graphic shows 5 Speakers and a Sub. Not Great!
Thinking this may be disc related I switched Discs. Star Wars: TPM (flame me later) Main Display Shows "Dolby D EX" Speaker Graphic shows 5 Speakers and a Sub.
I change Discs again. LOTR, Main Display "Dolby D EX", Speaker Graphic 5 and a sub!
I return to my manual. The manual says that the Amp has an EX/ES button with three modes "Auto" - detects a DD EX/DTS-ES source, "Matrix6.1" - detects a DD EX/DTS-ES source when there is one and Matrix a centre Rear when there isn't, "Off" - No Centre Rear regardless.
I now start a combination of discs and EX/ES mode settings all with the same results as before.
I send an email to the company I bought the amp from and they investigate. The reply I get sounds resonable -
para.
"When the DD EX flag is set on a disc which carries a DD EX soundtrack some older amps have a problem dealing with the flag. They assume that as they only have 5.1 capabilities they cannot decode the DD EX soundtrack at all and so no sound comes from the Amp. The result of this is that disc manufacturers do not set the DD EX flag on their discs. Bearing this in mind Yamaha have included a manual switching method for discs where the flag is not set. By switching the EX/ES mode on the Amp to "Matrix6.1" the Amp will detect the DD EX source and play it. The only current disc with the DD EX flag set is Pearl Harbour. Try testing that disc on your Amp."
Well, this pretty much matches what the manual says, so I borrow Pearl Harbour from my mum and give it a go. As soon as I hit play the Main Display shows "Dolby D EX" and the speaker graphic shows 6 speakers and a sub (EX/ES mode is set to "Auto"). Getting a little worried now!
I try a disc wich I know only has a DD 5.1 soundtrack and set the Amp's ES/EX mode to "Matrix6.1", the main display shows "Dolby D EX" and the speaker Graphic shows 5 and a sub.
Now, this all says to me that setting the EX/ES mode to "Matrix6.1" produces a Matrixed Centre Rear regardless of the presence of a DD EX soundtrack. So I get back onto Yamaha via the company I bought the amp from and Yamaha have confirmed that the Amp works the way I have said, without saying that it cannot produce a DD EX output from non flagged source. Instead they are suggesting that the Discs which claim to have DD EX soundtracks do not actually have them :confused:
So far the discs that have been tried which claim to have DD EX are:-
R1 Terminator II - The Ultimate Edition
R1 SW - The Phantom Menace
R1 TLOTR - The Fellowship of the Ring
R2 Harry Potter - The Philosophers Stone
The Cry For Help
Can you guys with DD EX capabilities test these discs out on your own amps (if you haven't already) and confirm that they do indeed have DD EX as claimed and that the guy from Yamaha is sadly misguided please.
Many Thanks
D
I have the first 2 discs and can confirm they are indeed 6.1 sound from my Denon 3801. Have you checked to confirm that there is definitely no sound coming from the centre rear speaker?
On the Denon's menu, unless you select the 'A' pair of rear speakers it won't recognise the centre rears. Not sure how the Yammy sets this up.
I have 6:1 @ home using a denon A1 and I can confirm all the films you mentioned are DD EX.
Do you know for certain that your dvd player is supplying the correct signal to the amp to play DD EX?
Ok, I may be getting a little confused here, but DD-EX is a matrixed rear center! So if the flag is not on the disc (and I know that all discs don't carry this flag) then you will have to manually set Matrixed 6.1 on these discs if you know they have the EX soundtrack? Then ones which do have a flag should auto-detect.
DTS-ES is a discreet 6.1 soundstage and so always carries a flag and will always detect.
Not sure if I am totally right there but that is how I understand it!
mickl - The Yamaha only has one set of rears so there is nothing to select there, but thanks for the suggestion. Sound does come from the Centre Rear but my concern is that I am gettings a Matrixed Centre Rear and not a Descrete Centre Rear.
ljp - as mantioned in my first post when playing Pearl Harbour which has the EX Flag set, everything works correctly.
Kryten - I was thinking along the same lines but Yamaha have said that DD ES is indeed a discrete 6.1 soundstage. This demonstrates itself to be true when playing Pearl Harbour as the Amp Shows all 6 surrounds and the sub woofer in the speaker graphic and yet when playing DD EX soundtracks where the Flag has not been set the Graphic only shows 5 surrounds and a Sub.
Don't Yammy use their own matrixed dsp wotsit for EX/ES, rather than the licensed DD/DTS discrete one..?
Could be wrong though as all this discrete/matrixed stuff always confused the crap out of me.. :p
DD 6.1 EX and DTS6.1 EX matrixed, only DTS ES is discrete. there is no official DD6.1 discrete format. Yamaha on their high end AX1 amp uses proprietary parts to decode not the licensed stuff.
if the decoding wasn't working, there wouldn't be sound coming from the centre speaker
http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/SurroundSound.shtml
Originally posted by Dave L
...
Kryten - I was thinking along the same lines but Yamaha have said that DD ES is indeed a discrete 6.1 soundstage. This demonstrates itself to be true when playing Pearl Harbour as the Amp Shows all 6 surrounds and the sub woofer in the speaker graphic and yet when playing DD EX soundtracks where the Flag has not been set the Graphic only shows 5 surrounds and a Sub.
I believe that Pearl Harbor was DD EX so was 6.1 but matrixed rears. The reason for the 6 speakers showing on the display is that the flag was set. Just because the rear centre showed as on doesn't mean it is a discreet channel, just like the old DPL the rear centre here is matrixed into the rear left and right in encoding and is extracted in decoding by a compatible amp. On DTS-ES the rear centre is a discreet 6th main channel.
Pretty much as Mickl said.
I have read a few posts by people on other forums who said that they leave their amps in 6.1 matrix all the time for DD5.1 and DD EX material as it gives a better soundstage (although personally I am still waiting to get my 6.1 amp so can't comment on this). But for DTS-ES you will get a seperate channel encoded on the soundtrack of the disc and so the amp will detect this and decode it if it has the ability to.
There are quite a few amps around which appear to be true 6.1 amps, however they can only cope with matrixed material and can't do 6.1 Discreet DTS-ES (the Pioneer 850 is an example of such an amp - although the 811s the replacement for the 810 is a 6.1 Discreet amp same as the 2802/3802 Denon's and many others)
mickl - if this is the case then why do I get sound from the Centre Rear using a DD5.1 source and setting the EX/ES mode to "Matrix6.1". Surely what you are saying is that if there is no 6th channel or if the 6th channel is not decoded then no sound comes from the Centre Rear, but this just isn't the case.
Kryten - I stand corrected, futher research confirms that DD EX is matrix-encoded into the Left and Right Rears. So do I take this to mean that when the Centre Rear speaker icon is lit the 6th channel is being decoded correctly and when it is not lit, the 6th channel is not being decoded? Why would Yamaha try to confuse the hell out of all their customers by using a display, which is designed to demonstrate 6 channels, to show that a soundtrack flag on a disc has been set? I mean who gives a damn as long as it works, I'd would rather be able to depend on the display to tell me what soundfield I am getting not whether a flag is set or not.
If the word for describing a centre channel which is encoded into the channels to it's left and right is 'Matrix' then what word describes a 6th channel which is simulated between the two channels to it's left and right?
From my manual:
Press EX/ES to turn on the Dolby Digital EX or DTS-ES compatible decoder.
The Display Changes AUTO - Matrix6.1 - Off each time the EX/ES button is pressed.
AUTO: This mode automatically switches Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES compatible depending on the signal. Rear Centre speaker does not work for 5.1 channel sources.
Matrix6.1: This setting produces 6-channel playback of input sources using the Dolby Digital EX or DTS-ES compatible decoder. The Rear Centre speaker can be used when playing a 5.1 Channel source.
Off: Rear Centre speaker does not work in this setting.
Based on this, how do I know that the sound from my rear centre speaker from a 6.1 source is that which is encoded on the disc and not just something that Yamaha have made up. They can obviously do it as stated above?
well in this case, it's blind faith as it can clearly pull info from the main channels to produce a centre signal, much like Pro-logic II and DTS Neo 6. I'd suggest calling Yamaha technical and asking if there is anyway of determining a true 6.1 signal
Originally posted by Dave L
Based on this, how do I know that the sound from my rear centre speaker from a 6.1 source is that which is encoded on the disc and not just something that Yamaha have made up. Not sure it doesn't actually use the encoded extra channel, but as I said before I think Yammy use their own codex(?) for ES on the lesser models and looking at the spec for the 730RDS it pretty much confirms it..
New Yamaha 32-Bit LSI (YSS-938) for Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby Digital EX, DTS "ES-Compatible" and Dolby Pro Logic II Decoding plus CINEMA DSP Processing
I think it's only the 1200RDS that 'does' kosher discrete 6.1, again from the spec list..
Dolby Digital, DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1, DTS Neo:6 and Dolby Surround Pro Logic II Decoding
Note also that it's only the 1200 that has the DTS-ES logo. All the others just have the vanilla DTS one.
I believe it's a licensing cost issue..
I dont have a 6 speaker set and my Yamaha only does Matrix 6.1 (HTR5540RDS) but it switches fine.
Playing a DDEX disc i get the Dolby Digital light on plus the Matrix 6.1 light and all the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, RC, LFE)
Playing a DTS-ES disc i get the DTS light on plus the Matrix 6.1 light and all the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, RC, LFE)
Playing a DD5.1 disc i get the Dolby Digital light on and the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, LFE)
Playing a DTS disc i get the DTS light on and the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, LFE)
My amp is set to auto and so only switches to 6.1 when the discs say so (which has been automatic on all the DD-EX and DTS-ES discs i've tried)
Thanks for all your help guys, Yamaha have pretty much confirmed that the lack of the centre rear light in the speaker graphic is an indication that the amp is not actually doing what it is supposed to do. They have confirmed that the same is true on other RXV730RDS and that the problem is not just limited to my amp.
I'll let you know what the final outcome is.
About matrixing: all this really is is that the extra channel is equally mixed between the rear left and the rear right, just like the front center is matrixed in DPL. So you can apply the same "dematrixing" alogrithms reagardless of whether the soundtrack was officially mixed with this in mind, since anything which was meant to sound like it was directly behind would have been equally mixed between the rear left/right anyway. So there is no difference to the out come of what gets to the center rear for a 5.1 ex whether the flag is set and you have the amp on auto so only dematrixes if the flag is set, or the flag is missing and you set the amp to matrix6.1, where it dematrixes regardless of whether the flag is set or not. It sounds to me that the speaker light display on this amp just tells you what the flags say about the audio, not what the amp is deciding to do with it. Use the THX setup thingy you get on loads of THX discs, I believe Episode 1 has one. This includes a speaker test which includes a matrixed rear test, so use this with the amp set to matrix6.1 . If it acts like it should, regardless of what the speaker lights say, then just leave it on matrix6.1 and forget about the lights.
I have recently bought a Yamaha RXV730RDS Amp, which claims to have full DD EX support and DTS ES compatable support. There is a possibility that it does not!!:mad:
A little background:-
1) I have set the Amp up as per the instruction manual and have double checked all the settings.
2) As part of the main display the amp has a small graphic which shows what speakers are being decoded. including the subwoofer there are seven small squares each containing a key indicating which speaker is represented, I will refer to this as the Speaker Graphic as I explain the problem.
The Problem:-
Having had my new amp delivered I was eager to try out it's capabilities, first disc in the player was R1 Terminator II - Ultimate Edition. I selected the DTS-ES soundtrack and sat back. The Amp's Main Display changed to "DTS-ES" and the Speaker Graphic shows all 6 speakers and the sub are being used. Great!
Switch soundtracks to DD EX. Main Display shows "Dolby D EX" Speaker Graphic shows 5 Speakers and a Sub. Not Great!
Thinking this may be disc related I switched Discs. Star Wars: TPM (flame me later) Main Display Shows "Dolby D EX" Speaker Graphic shows 5 Speakers and a Sub.
I change Discs again. LOTR, Main Display "Dolby D EX", Speaker Graphic 5 and a sub!
I return to my manual. The manual says that the Amp has an EX/ES button with three modes "Auto" - detects a DD EX/DTS-ES source, "Matrix6.1" - detects a DD EX/DTS-ES source when there is one and Matrix a centre Rear when there isn't, "Off" - No Centre Rear regardless.
I now start a combination of discs and EX/ES mode settings all with the same results as before.
I send an email to the company I bought the amp from and they investigate. The reply I get sounds resonable -
para.
"When the DD EX flag is set on a disc which carries a DD EX soundtrack some older amps have a problem dealing with the flag. They assume that as they only have 5.1 capabilities they cannot decode the DD EX soundtrack at all and so no sound comes from the Amp. The result of this is that disc manufacturers do not set the DD EX flag on their discs. Bearing this in mind Yamaha have included a manual switching method for discs where the flag is not set. By switching the EX/ES mode on the Amp to "Matrix6.1" the Amp will detect the DD EX source and play it. The only current disc with the DD EX flag set is Pearl Harbour. Try testing that disc on your Amp."
Well, this pretty much matches what the manual says, so I borrow Pearl Harbour from my mum and give it a go. As soon as I hit play the Main Display shows "Dolby D EX" and the speaker graphic shows 6 speakers and a sub (EX/ES mode is set to "Auto"). Getting a little worried now!
I try a disc wich I know only has a DD 5.1 soundtrack and set the Amp's ES/EX mode to "Matrix6.1", the main display shows "Dolby D EX" and the speaker Graphic shows 5 and a sub.
Now, this all says to me that setting the EX/ES mode to "Matrix6.1" produces a Matrixed Centre Rear regardless of the presence of a DD EX soundtrack. So I get back onto Yamaha via the company I bought the amp from and Yamaha have confirmed that the Amp works the way I have said, without saying that it cannot produce a DD EX output from non flagged source. Instead they are suggesting that the Discs which claim to have DD EX soundtracks do not actually have them :confused:
So far the discs that have been tried which claim to have DD EX are:-
R1 Terminator II - The Ultimate Edition
R1 SW - The Phantom Menace
R1 TLOTR - The Fellowship of the Ring
R2 Harry Potter - The Philosophers Stone
The Cry For Help
Can you guys with DD EX capabilities test these discs out on your own amps (if you haven't already) and confirm that they do indeed have DD EX as claimed and that the guy from Yamaha is sadly misguided please.
Many Thanks
D
Answers:
I have the first 2 discs and can confirm they are indeed 6.1 sound from my Denon 3801. Have you checked to confirm that there is definitely no sound coming from the centre rear speaker?
On the Denon's menu, unless you select the 'A' pair of rear speakers it won't recognise the centre rears. Not sure how the Yammy sets this up.
Answers:
I have 6:1 @ home using a denon A1 and I can confirm all the films you mentioned are DD EX.
Do you know for certain that your dvd player is supplying the correct signal to the amp to play DD EX?
Answers:
Ok, I may be getting a little confused here, but DD-EX is a matrixed rear center! So if the flag is not on the disc (and I know that all discs don't carry this flag) then you will have to manually set Matrixed 6.1 on these discs if you know they have the EX soundtrack? Then ones which do have a flag should auto-detect.
DTS-ES is a discreet 6.1 soundstage and so always carries a flag and will always detect.
Not sure if I am totally right there but that is how I understand it!
Answers:
mickl - The Yamaha only has one set of rears so there is nothing to select there, but thanks for the suggestion. Sound does come from the Centre Rear but my concern is that I am gettings a Matrixed Centre Rear and not a Descrete Centre Rear.
ljp - as mantioned in my first post when playing Pearl Harbour which has the EX Flag set, everything works correctly.
Kryten - I was thinking along the same lines but Yamaha have said that DD ES is indeed a discrete 6.1 soundstage. This demonstrates itself to be true when playing Pearl Harbour as the Amp Shows all 6 surrounds and the sub woofer in the speaker graphic and yet when playing DD EX soundtracks where the Flag has not been set the Graphic only shows 5 surrounds and a Sub.
Answers:
Don't Yammy use their own matrixed dsp wotsit for EX/ES, rather than the licensed DD/DTS discrete one..?
Could be wrong though as all this discrete/matrixed stuff always confused the crap out of me.. :p
Answers:
DD 6.1 EX and DTS6.1 EX matrixed, only DTS ES is discrete. there is no official DD6.1 discrete format. Yamaha on their high end AX1 amp uses proprietary parts to decode not the licensed stuff.
if the decoding wasn't working, there wouldn't be sound coming from the centre speaker
http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/SurroundSound.shtml
Answers:
Originally posted by Dave L
...
Kryten - I was thinking along the same lines but Yamaha have said that DD ES is indeed a discrete 6.1 soundstage. This demonstrates itself to be true when playing Pearl Harbour as the Amp Shows all 6 surrounds and the sub woofer in the speaker graphic and yet when playing DD EX soundtracks where the Flag has not been set the Graphic only shows 5 surrounds and a Sub.
I believe that Pearl Harbor was DD EX so was 6.1 but matrixed rears. The reason for the 6 speakers showing on the display is that the flag was set. Just because the rear centre showed as on doesn't mean it is a discreet channel, just like the old DPL the rear centre here is matrixed into the rear left and right in encoding and is extracted in decoding by a compatible amp. On DTS-ES the rear centre is a discreet 6th main channel.
Pretty much as Mickl said.
I have read a few posts by people on other forums who said that they leave their amps in 6.1 matrix all the time for DD5.1 and DD EX material as it gives a better soundstage (although personally I am still waiting to get my 6.1 amp so can't comment on this). But for DTS-ES you will get a seperate channel encoded on the soundtrack of the disc and so the amp will detect this and decode it if it has the ability to.
There are quite a few amps around which appear to be true 6.1 amps, however they can only cope with matrixed material and can't do 6.1 Discreet DTS-ES (the Pioneer 850 is an example of such an amp - although the 811s the replacement for the 810 is a 6.1 Discreet amp same as the 2802/3802 Denon's and many others)
Answers:
mickl - if this is the case then why do I get sound from the Centre Rear using a DD5.1 source and setting the EX/ES mode to "Matrix6.1". Surely what you are saying is that if there is no 6th channel or if the 6th channel is not decoded then no sound comes from the Centre Rear, but this just isn't the case.
Kryten - I stand corrected, futher research confirms that DD EX is matrix-encoded into the Left and Right Rears. So do I take this to mean that when the Centre Rear speaker icon is lit the 6th channel is being decoded correctly and when it is not lit, the 6th channel is not being decoded? Why would Yamaha try to confuse the hell out of all their customers by using a display, which is designed to demonstrate 6 channels, to show that a soundtrack flag on a disc has been set? I mean who gives a damn as long as it works, I'd would rather be able to depend on the display to tell me what soundfield I am getting not whether a flag is set or not.
If the word for describing a centre channel which is encoded into the channels to it's left and right is 'Matrix' then what word describes a 6th channel which is simulated between the two channels to it's left and right?
From my manual:
Press EX/ES to turn on the Dolby Digital EX or DTS-ES compatible decoder.
The Display Changes AUTO - Matrix6.1 - Off each time the EX/ES button is pressed.
AUTO: This mode automatically switches Dolby Digital EX and DTS-ES compatible depending on the signal. Rear Centre speaker does not work for 5.1 channel sources.
Matrix6.1: This setting produces 6-channel playback of input sources using the Dolby Digital EX or DTS-ES compatible decoder. The Rear Centre speaker can be used when playing a 5.1 Channel source.
Off: Rear Centre speaker does not work in this setting.
Based on this, how do I know that the sound from my rear centre speaker from a 6.1 source is that which is encoded on the disc and not just something that Yamaha have made up. They can obviously do it as stated above?
Answers:
well in this case, it's blind faith as it can clearly pull info from the main channels to produce a centre signal, much like Pro-logic II and DTS Neo 6. I'd suggest calling Yamaha technical and asking if there is anyway of determining a true 6.1 signal
Answers:
Originally posted by Dave L
Based on this, how do I know that the sound from my rear centre speaker from a 6.1 source is that which is encoded on the disc and not just something that Yamaha have made up. Not sure it doesn't actually use the encoded extra channel, but as I said before I think Yammy use their own codex(?) for ES on the lesser models and looking at the spec for the 730RDS it pretty much confirms it..
New Yamaha 32-Bit LSI (YSS-938) for Dolby Digital, DTS, Dolby Digital EX, DTS "ES-Compatible" and Dolby Pro Logic II Decoding plus CINEMA DSP Processing
I think it's only the 1200RDS that 'does' kosher discrete 6.1, again from the spec list..
Dolby Digital, DTS Digital Surround, DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1, DTS Neo:6 and Dolby Surround Pro Logic II Decoding
Note also that it's only the 1200 that has the DTS-ES logo. All the others just have the vanilla DTS one.
I believe it's a licensing cost issue..
Answers:
I dont have a 6 speaker set and my Yamaha only does Matrix 6.1 (HTR5540RDS) but it switches fine.
Playing a DDEX disc i get the Dolby Digital light on plus the Matrix 6.1 light and all the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, RC, LFE)
Playing a DTS-ES disc i get the DTS light on plus the Matrix 6.1 light and all the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, RC, LFE)
Playing a DD5.1 disc i get the Dolby Digital light on and the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, LFE)
Playing a DTS disc i get the DTS light on and the speaker graphics light up (FL, FR, FC, RL, RR, LFE)
My amp is set to auto and so only switches to 6.1 when the discs say so (which has been automatic on all the DD-EX and DTS-ES discs i've tried)
Answers:
Thanks for all your help guys, Yamaha have pretty much confirmed that the lack of the centre rear light in the speaker graphic is an indication that the amp is not actually doing what it is supposed to do. They have confirmed that the same is true on other RXV730RDS and that the problem is not just limited to my amp.
I'll let you know what the final outcome is.
Answers:
About matrixing: all this really is is that the extra channel is equally mixed between the rear left and the rear right, just like the front center is matrixed in DPL. So you can apply the same "dematrixing" alogrithms reagardless of whether the soundtrack was officially mixed with this in mind, since anything which was meant to sound like it was directly behind would have been equally mixed between the rear left/right anyway. So there is no difference to the out come of what gets to the center rear for a 5.1 ex whether the flag is set and you have the amp on auto so only dematrixes if the flag is set, or the flag is missing and you set the amp to matrix6.1, where it dematrixes regardless of whether the flag is set or not. It sounds to me that the speaker light display on this amp just tells you what the flags say about the audio, not what the amp is deciding to do with it. Use the THX setup thingy you get on loads of THX discs, I believe Episode 1 has one. This includes a speaker test which includes a matrixed rear test, so use this with the amp set to matrix6.1 . If it acts like it should, regardless of what the speaker lights say, then just leave it on matrix6.1 and forget about the lights.
1 2