Question:
Hi all,
I saw MLD Manual Lympthatic Massage mentioned elsewhere in these forums and I was astonished, on looking further into it that it is advocated for after cancer treatment, eg see:
http://www.cancerbacup.org.uk/Resour...phaticdrainage
I have had Prostate Cancer, and hopefully cured of it, and so know of the perils of loose cancer cells getting into the lymphatic system and the near impossibility of knowing for certain that every last one has been killed.
How can this fact square with the use of MLD, which to my untutored mind involves helping any cancer cell along its way to re-infect other parts of the body.
Leonardo
Looking at other threads here, I am convinced that something is wrong. If doctors are absolutely certain that every single cancer cell is killed and thus lymphatic massage is safe, then why bother with check ups!!!!!!
Leo
hi Leo
it is advocated on the grounds that it can greatly help relieve or alleviate symptoms of treatment or surgery where nodes etc have been removed....the results can be astonishing you can have someone walk into your clinic whose ankles or say knuckles you cant see but you can when they leave or after a few treatments...etc, you can also self help them by giving them little bits to do themselves to keep the swelling at bay...
tigs
x
Tigs,
you do appreciate my puzzlement , coz massage is a no no for cancer cases AFAIK. Am I to understand that when they remove the lymph nodes they are absolutely certain that they have removed all the cancer cells as well. I can appreciate the mental. therapeutic effect of any human touch, including massage in the terminally ill, but we are talking about the so called cured or thosae in remission.
Leo XXXXX
please tell me, if someone is terminally ill, can massage and mld speed up their illness?
The lymph system is totally reliant on other systems to help it move - including arterial flow, respiration and muscle pump. MLD helps to move the lymph by way of a series of gentle skin-movement techniques.
It is used post-operatively to relieve oedema in surrounding tissue, as surgery may well have damaged the collateral lymph vessels or, in the case of cancer, lymph nodes may have been completely removed, thus impeding the flow of lymph from the body part below, which causes lymphoedema.
Someone here may be able to tell us if clinical studies have been done into massage or MLD speeding up illness - I doubt if this is the case. If the lymph system is stimulated by muscle pump, then walking to the end of the road may have a similar effect.
I have treated palliative patients using MLD. The cancer in all cases was aggressive. Perhaps the sessions of MLD helped to slow the rate of spread - who knows - but they certainly valued the treatment as it was non-invasive and profoundly relaxing.
Having had breast cancer myself in 2001, I jumped at the chance to have MLD prior to surgery (to get the skin in good condition) and then again within days of leaving hospital to reduce the swelling and bruising. I had a lumpectomy and a few lymph nodes removed from my axilla. A month later, I had the rest of the axillary lymph nodes removed. I am now a prime candidate for lymphoedema, but practice self-lymphatic drainage on myself twice a day to keep the remaining lymph vessels in good nick! I have annual check-ups and all is well so far. I continue to be vigilant about checking myself, as the mammogram did not find the lump - I did, in the shower one morning! I value the annual check-up - as the docs are very careful to check for any skin abnormality that I might not spot. The mammogram is not pleasant (try the same test for testicular cancer, chaps!) but mainly reassuring. I also have annual smears.
MLD is one of the four cornerstones of lymphoedema management, be it primary (congenital) or secondary (as a result of trauma or cancer treatment). Classic or remedial massage is not the thing for lymphoedema - MLD most definately is.
It's interesting here how knowledge differs. At College we were taught both in the A&P lectures, and Massage (and Indian Head Massage) lectures that in no way could you or should you perform massage on any ex or current cancer patient as it COULD release dormant cancer cells and set them floating off round the body until they attached themselves to healthy tissue, organs or lymph and came back to life.
And on every client Form the biggy question is 'have you had cancer treatment, or are you having cancer treatment' and then if yes, you would refuse to perform a massage, explaining the above reasons. I do believe this may also have been (but it was 1998 so needs checking) the policy of the FHT at that time also.
Consequently I have turned the clients who I could not and would not treat with massage, into having a Reflexology treatment insteead, which held no such warnings through the College VTCT course or the FHT.
However, my dear friend Ann, who now runs her own Holistic therapy business in Cambridge, and is a retired Nursing Sister, who has spent 11 years in the Arthur Rank Hospice in Cambs., tells me that this is all nonsense and she happily massages cancer patients on a regular basis with absolutely no harm done.:D
As I have been bound by the terms of the FHT Insurance for many years, and I was taught at College to do so, I must admit this was a revelation to me. :eek: I can think of nothing better than having a massage if I were a cancer patient, so I find myself re thinking the entire subject. In my research though, it seems to be split down the middle as to the safety of massage during cancer, or after cancer.
But I feel I must say here that I have NOT given a massage to my husband in the 2.5 years he has been battling with Prostate cancer - again for the reasons above - I suppose it is normal that a wife should feel responsible for her husband and try to stay within the guidelines she knows. How could I bear it if I actually caused any now dormant cells to come alive again[:-]:( I do however give him regular Reflexology sessions;) and we all know how balanced this treatment is.
I may have added yet more confusion to the debate, so sorry;) but my Jury is still OUT as to the relative or otherwise safety of massage during or after cancer treatment.
Love Gxxx
This is an interesting question which I have researched quite a bit - and so far have found absolutely no evidence that massage has been shown to increase the frequency of metastatic spread.
IMHO the important factors are maintaining general well-being with good nutrition and maximising the immune system, so that 'seedling' cancer cells are kept 'dormant'.
With regard to prostatic cancer, cells are known to spread early via the venous system known as Batson's vertebral plexus, via which they reach the lumbar spine and pelvic bones. Treatment such as hormonal alteration is aimed at starving these cells of stimulation - they have not been killed. radiotherapy for bony deposits is aimed at pain relief, not cure.
Returning to massage and cancer generally, I would highly recommend the book "Medicine Hands - massage therapy for people with cancer" by Gayle MacDonald - PM me for ISBN and publisher if required. To quote from the jacket :
"Medicine Hands debunks a pervasive health myth that massage is anathema for those suffering with cancer. The idea that cancer can metastatise as a result of massage is not rooted in science. This book cites clinical evidence that proves just the opposite. Touch and massage are vital to a cancer patient's health and well-being"
with love & light - Doq xxx
My 2p
I do volunteer work for a local cancer charity and I'm off tonight to do back or arm or leg massages on pre-breast op cancer patients.
IMHO I think that that if you deny a cancer patient the sensation of touch then you make it a very lonely illness & I don't think anyone wants that - certainly not the people I see.
LOL
FBx
I saw MLD Manual Lympthatic Massage mentioned elsewhere in these forums and I was astonished, on looking further into it that it is advocated for after cancer treatment, eg see:
http://www.cancerbacup.org.uk/Resour...phaticdrainage
I have had Prostate Cancer, and hopefully cured of it, and so know of the perils of loose cancer cells getting into the lymphatic system and the near impossibility of knowing for certain that every last one has been killed.
How can this fact square with the use of MLD, which to my untutored mind involves helping any cancer cell along its way to re-infect other parts of the body.
Leonardo
Answers:
Looking at other threads here, I am convinced that something is wrong. If doctors are absolutely certain that every single cancer cell is killed and thus lymphatic massage is safe, then why bother with check ups!!!!!!
Leo
Answers:
hi Leo
it is advocated on the grounds that it can greatly help relieve or alleviate symptoms of treatment or surgery where nodes etc have been removed....the results can be astonishing you can have someone walk into your clinic whose ankles or say knuckles you cant see but you can when they leave or after a few treatments...etc, you can also self help them by giving them little bits to do themselves to keep the swelling at bay...
tigs
x
Answers:
Tigs,
you do appreciate my puzzlement , coz massage is a no no for cancer cases AFAIK. Am I to understand that when they remove the lymph nodes they are absolutely certain that they have removed all the cancer cells as well. I can appreciate the mental. therapeutic effect of any human touch, including massage in the terminally ill, but we are talking about the so called cured or thosae in remission.
Leo XXXXX
Answers:
please tell me, if someone is terminally ill, can massage and mld speed up their illness?
Answers:
The lymph system is totally reliant on other systems to help it move - including arterial flow, respiration and muscle pump. MLD helps to move the lymph by way of a series of gentle skin-movement techniques.
It is used post-operatively to relieve oedema in surrounding tissue, as surgery may well have damaged the collateral lymph vessels or, in the case of cancer, lymph nodes may have been completely removed, thus impeding the flow of lymph from the body part below, which causes lymphoedema.
Someone here may be able to tell us if clinical studies have been done into massage or MLD speeding up illness - I doubt if this is the case. If the lymph system is stimulated by muscle pump, then walking to the end of the road may have a similar effect.
I have treated palliative patients using MLD. The cancer in all cases was aggressive. Perhaps the sessions of MLD helped to slow the rate of spread - who knows - but they certainly valued the treatment as it was non-invasive and profoundly relaxing.
Having had breast cancer myself in 2001, I jumped at the chance to have MLD prior to surgery (to get the skin in good condition) and then again within days of leaving hospital to reduce the swelling and bruising. I had a lumpectomy and a few lymph nodes removed from my axilla. A month later, I had the rest of the axillary lymph nodes removed. I am now a prime candidate for lymphoedema, but practice self-lymphatic drainage on myself twice a day to keep the remaining lymph vessels in good nick! I have annual check-ups and all is well so far. I continue to be vigilant about checking myself, as the mammogram did not find the lump - I did, in the shower one morning! I value the annual check-up - as the docs are very careful to check for any skin abnormality that I might not spot. The mammogram is not pleasant (try the same test for testicular cancer, chaps!) but mainly reassuring. I also have annual smears.
MLD is one of the four cornerstones of lymphoedema management, be it primary (congenital) or secondary (as a result of trauma or cancer treatment). Classic or remedial massage is not the thing for lymphoedema - MLD most definately is.
Answers:
It's interesting here how knowledge differs. At College we were taught both in the A&P lectures, and Massage (and Indian Head Massage) lectures that in no way could you or should you perform massage on any ex or current cancer patient as it COULD release dormant cancer cells and set them floating off round the body until they attached themselves to healthy tissue, organs or lymph and came back to life.
And on every client Form the biggy question is 'have you had cancer treatment, or are you having cancer treatment' and then if yes, you would refuse to perform a massage, explaining the above reasons. I do believe this may also have been (but it was 1998 so needs checking) the policy of the FHT at that time also.
Consequently I have turned the clients who I could not and would not treat with massage, into having a Reflexology treatment insteead, which held no such warnings through the College VTCT course or the FHT.
However, my dear friend Ann, who now runs her own Holistic therapy business in Cambridge, and is a retired Nursing Sister, who has spent 11 years in the Arthur Rank Hospice in Cambs., tells me that this is all nonsense and she happily massages cancer patients on a regular basis with absolutely no harm done.:D
As I have been bound by the terms of the FHT Insurance for many years, and I was taught at College to do so, I must admit this was a revelation to me. :eek: I can think of nothing better than having a massage if I were a cancer patient, so I find myself re thinking the entire subject. In my research though, it seems to be split down the middle as to the safety of massage during cancer, or after cancer.
But I feel I must say here that I have NOT given a massage to my husband in the 2.5 years he has been battling with Prostate cancer - again for the reasons above - I suppose it is normal that a wife should feel responsible for her husband and try to stay within the guidelines she knows. How could I bear it if I actually caused any now dormant cells to come alive again[:-]:( I do however give him regular Reflexology sessions;) and we all know how balanced this treatment is.
I may have added yet more confusion to the debate, so sorry;) but my Jury is still OUT as to the relative or otherwise safety of massage during or after cancer treatment.
Love Gxxx
Answers:
This is an interesting question which I have researched quite a bit - and so far have found absolutely no evidence that massage has been shown to increase the frequency of metastatic spread.
IMHO the important factors are maintaining general well-being with good nutrition and maximising the immune system, so that 'seedling' cancer cells are kept 'dormant'.
With regard to prostatic cancer, cells are known to spread early via the venous system known as Batson's vertebral plexus, via which they reach the lumbar spine and pelvic bones. Treatment such as hormonal alteration is aimed at starving these cells of stimulation - they have not been killed. radiotherapy for bony deposits is aimed at pain relief, not cure.
Returning to massage and cancer generally, I would highly recommend the book "Medicine Hands - massage therapy for people with cancer" by Gayle MacDonald - PM me for ISBN and publisher if required. To quote from the jacket :
"Medicine Hands debunks a pervasive health myth that massage is anathema for those suffering with cancer. The idea that cancer can metastatise as a result of massage is not rooted in science. This book cites clinical evidence that proves just the opposite. Touch and massage are vital to a cancer patient's health and well-being"
with love & light - Doq xxx
Answers:
My 2p
I do volunteer work for a local cancer charity and I'm off tonight to do back or arm or leg massages on pre-breast op cancer patients.
IMHO I think that that if you deny a cancer patient the sensation of touch then you make it a very lonely illness & I don't think anyone wants that - certainly not the people I see.
LOL
FBx
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