Question:
hi guys, what are your experiences of learning myofacial/rolfing techniques in the uk?
have any of you found dvds vidios from usa helpfull ala Eric Dalton Tom Myers
Who would you like to nominate as top guru in the uk.
thanks steve
It's good stuff for the brave! [:@]
I too was going to say that there are likely to be courses in the UK & DVDs can't really replace a good hands on course. ;)
And.
stephen. i've done myofascial release one and two in australia, and it's awesome stuff. i have emailed my tutor in oz to find out if he knows of anyone over here. if he responds with something, i'll post it up here for you. by the way, he was trained by rolfers and he was fantastic, so my gut says you should try and find a tutor who's a rolfer too. good luck. if you find something could you let me know too please?
thanks mate
henry
All i can find London way so far is £125 1 dayer east London 04/04/05 through SportEX
thanks to all for your help, Henry are you in London?
steve
The london school of sports massage does this course:
http://www.lssm.com/courses.html#ADVANCED%20WORKSHOPS
whereas ruth duncan does the course below (i think this is based on the work of john barnes):
http://www.whtherapies.com/workshops...ascial_therapy
also myofacsial release is a technique whereas rolfing/hellerwork/aston patterning/structural integartion are recipes or a series of treatments/sessions with an overall plan. Whereas myofacsial release can just be a technique which is used for a specific injury or body part.
regards
chris
stephen, apologies for delay in response... yes, i am based in london.
regards
henry
Can recommend Active Health Group in Bradford, have done some MFR on their advanced sports therapy course and am definitly going back for the MFR level 1 and 2!
Course is excellent!!
Hiya folks.
I run courses in Myofascial Release. I use the modern form on MFR which is based on the John Barnes approach and is NOT painful. See my listing on helathy pages for a description.
The older style of soft tissue release/rolfing can be painful and have been around for a long time, they are nothing new but can be effective if you can put up with the pain, the 2 are very different.
The Barnes work is very effective and treates the whole body. Other types of soft tissue mobs work on a treatment protocol and as it were cookie cutter recipie. Every body is different and all fascial restrictions are different you cannot apply a protocl but instead must feel into the tissue and work with it to find and treat the cause.
I am planning a level 1 hopefully in September down south , 2 days.... I need a venue if anyone can help!!!!!!
see you
Hi Ruth, i myself have had approx 15 sessions of Rolfing and often thought (from a practitioners point of veiw )what a luxury to have a client commit to 10 sessions to achieve good results. Are you saying in effect that you can be as effective with less pain without the need for a client to commit to the ten series?
regards steve
Hiya Steve....
Well you can look at it in different ways...... sure having a repeat client is a luxury, a great financila income, but what is being siad here.. is it that if you only take 9 sessions you wont be better but if you take the 10.. everything will be rosy. So what happens after 10 sessions and you are no better, waste of money. I am sure many folks have beinfitted from this 'cookie cutter' recipie but it makes it sound like the financial gain is more important than helping folks back to health.
The modern form of MFR does not follow a set protocol of techniques...why... because we are all different. 2 people that present with whiplash can have totally different sets of restrictions, bearing in mind that fascia is 3d and completely comtionious. The 10 session appraoch applied by a few therapies addresses the whole body by a sytematic set of protocols and techniques that are used in aorder, intuition plays a very little part of this set of techniques. After this approach you should be pain free. What if intuition were involved and client participation played a big part, you work where they feel things changing and moving, pulling and stretching not where you protocol says you have to go next. Because the modern method of MFR works with the body/mind connection you are able to follow the restrictions as the patients presents them to you in unwinding. If that was to happen then you could get the patient pain free in far fewer session. The modern form of MFR is non invasive. We wait for the collagen in the fascia to release, not force it like Rolfing does, it is a totally different feeling, a far nicer experience and so amazing to feel your body unwind naturally and move and soften as your own tissue lets go. I teach people how to work with MFR so as they can feel what is going on... they have to be a part of the process... there is no grin and bear it allowed because that causes natural dissociation and that defeats the object of the purpose.
When you grin and bear it your body tenses up..... behind every thought there is a chemical and physical reaction. If you are in pain you tense up....if you sense something will be painful you tense up. When the body is tense it is very hard to feel where the true restrictuons are in any therapy. You must encourage the patient to relax and let go. You then apply the gemtle pressure of MFR, using a law of physics called the piezoelectric effect, a low load of pressure over a sustained period of time will create change in the ground substance of the fascisl component. As the ground substance changes back to a fluid state the tissue lets go of the restrictions and you feel your hands move into the next barrier... there is no force.. you are allowing the tissue to re-organise and release it's self and this change provides a measurable and functional tissue change. No pain.. all gain!!!
It's better to aim higher and provide a service where results happen instintaniously, people pay less as they are in treatment less, they feel the difference and give you far more client referrals.
MFR is a fantastic therapy, and if you want to learn it I would recommend that you cover it in a longer rather than shorter course, as there is so much to learn. There are lots of short workshops on the subject, which I feel doesnt give you enough time to master the techniques. DVD's and videos are good, but only as a reference guide as part of a training course.
hi ruth,
my impression of the rolfing 10 series is that it is not a modality that one engages for a specific compaint of pain or dysfunction, rather it comprises a comprehensive program of structural integration, that is the realignment of every and all parts of the body. hence the more structured (cookie cutter, as you put it) approach.
also the ten series was developed as a foundation upon which practitioners can then deviate based on the individual needs of the client, so that although clients have the option of doing the entire series, this is not necessarily always the case.
thirdly, the advantage of the ten series is the standardisation of approach across all rolfers meaning that you can visit a rolfer anywhere in the world and say, "i have completed up to step 4" and they will know exactly what has been does to you so far and be able to pick up your treatment program. this approach does not tie you to one practitioner.
lastly, the connection of rolfing with pain is a myth. if you read the literature on the rolf institute website and/or tom myers (member of the rolf institute since 1975) "anatomy trains" books, they talk specifally about the avoidance of causing pain in treatments.
just thought i should let you know my thoughts on these issues.
x
henry
Hiya Henry... just got your PM too.
I totally agree with you on the aspect of it beinga structured approach where all the trained practitioners work the same way.
The main difference between the traditional soft tissue mobs, like Rolfing, Stuart taws stuff, Art Riggs Stuff, Lever work, KMI and even the'NEW' Active Release Therapy is that they do not allow enough time for the collagenous component of the fascia to completely reorganise. They also work at the site of pain opposed to feeling into the system for the restrictions. Hence as you dont connect with the system energetically and you end up forcing it. If you were taught how to feel the fascu restrictions then you could work where the cause is and not need to follow a cookine cutter recipie to cover all pissibilities.. what a waste of time 10 sessions would be if you could make a difference in 3 with MFR. I have been Rolfed many times when I lived in the US and it was painful compared Barnes MFR. One of my teachers at Massage School was an Advanced Rolfer and we were taught some of their techniques in Neruo class, I very rarely use them now as I get far better results with MFR. That doesn't mean to say Rolfing doesnt wowrk.. it does and I have a high respect for it, I have ever considered doing Tom's KMI but feel that I am better suited to the Barnes stuff because it works with the body/mind connection and it's fantastic to see folks unwind on the table and to be aprt of that.
John Barnes has trained over 50,000 therapists.. thats a hell of a lot more than Tom Myers.. so Barnes stuff is very popular because it works and you dont need to do 10 sessions to make it work. John Barnes and John Upledger used to work together and teach together. Cranial Sacral is MFR, but MFR is not simply Cranial work.
You try and Rolf subscapularis and tell me that doesnt hurt... I'd far rather that I got the release using MFR for my patients than cause them more pain.
Hey lets face it... there are so many types of bodywork around... they all have their pors and cons...all have their benifits and can create change for the patient in one way or another. The basisc fact remains that traditional soft tissue release is following the old paridigm. New research backs up that facts that collagen needs time to release.. to my knowlege very few therapies follow the research.
And I still maintain that old style soft tissue release hurts... you need to try Barnes MFR instead.
Ruth, i bow to your greater exposure and experience to both streams of myofascial work. to be fair, (as i have stated in pm's to you) i have heard great things about the barnes method, by example, my myofascial release teacher during my remedial massage diploma taught the rolfing approach but gave equal weight to the barnes method. of course one is always going to be biased towards the modality that you prefer. however i just can't help reacting when one modality talks about being "better" than another one. so it's comforting to see more balance in your response and to hear you say that you respect rolfing.
x
henry
totally agree with you Henry... everything works and yes you are right you will always be bias to what you prefer.
I tried everything when I had ME for 8 years, eventually I got better through my own learnings. When I ended working in the US and came across barnes MFR I knew that that would help me finally rid myself of the ME....I knew that ME happened to me because of my past and because of stress.... I have never ever seen any other soft tissue body work release old habit and bracing paterns the way JFB work does....... that to me meansa hell of a lot more than pushing into the soft tissue.
I am hopefully assisting at the JFB beginners seminars in Chicago in November and am sooo looking forward to it.. as the Americans say it will be awsome!!!!
have any of you found dvds vidios from usa helpfull ala Eric Dalton Tom Myers
Who would you like to nominate as top guru in the uk.
thanks steve
Answers:
It's good stuff for the brave! [:@]
I too was going to say that there are likely to be courses in the UK & DVDs can't really replace a good hands on course. ;)
And.
Answers:
stephen. i've done myofascial release one and two in australia, and it's awesome stuff. i have emailed my tutor in oz to find out if he knows of anyone over here. if he responds with something, i'll post it up here for you. by the way, he was trained by rolfers and he was fantastic, so my gut says you should try and find a tutor who's a rolfer too. good luck. if you find something could you let me know too please?
thanks mate
henry
Answers:
All i can find London way so far is £125 1 dayer east London 04/04/05 through SportEX
thanks to all for your help, Henry are you in London?
steve
Answers:
The london school of sports massage does this course:
http://www.lssm.com/courses.html#ADVANCED%20WORKSHOPS
whereas ruth duncan does the course below (i think this is based on the work of john barnes):
http://www.whtherapies.com/workshops...ascial_therapy
also myofacsial release is a technique whereas rolfing/hellerwork/aston patterning/structural integartion are recipes or a series of treatments/sessions with an overall plan. Whereas myofacsial release can just be a technique which is used for a specific injury or body part.
regards
chris
Answers:
stephen, apologies for delay in response... yes, i am based in london.
regards
henry
Answers:
Can recommend Active Health Group in Bradford, have done some MFR on their advanced sports therapy course and am definitly going back for the MFR level 1 and 2!
Course is excellent!!
Answers:
Hiya folks.
I run courses in Myofascial Release. I use the modern form on MFR which is based on the John Barnes approach and is NOT painful. See my listing on helathy pages for a description.
The older style of soft tissue release/rolfing can be painful and have been around for a long time, they are nothing new but can be effective if you can put up with the pain, the 2 are very different.
The Barnes work is very effective and treates the whole body. Other types of soft tissue mobs work on a treatment protocol and as it were cookie cutter recipie. Every body is different and all fascial restrictions are different you cannot apply a protocl but instead must feel into the tissue and work with it to find and treat the cause.
I am planning a level 1 hopefully in September down south , 2 days.... I need a venue if anyone can help!!!!!!
see you
Answers:
Hi Ruth, i myself have had approx 15 sessions of Rolfing and often thought (from a practitioners point of veiw )what a luxury to have a client commit to 10 sessions to achieve good results. Are you saying in effect that you can be as effective with less pain without the need for a client to commit to the ten series?
regards steve
Answers:
Hiya Steve....
Well you can look at it in different ways...... sure having a repeat client is a luxury, a great financila income, but what is being siad here.. is it that if you only take 9 sessions you wont be better but if you take the 10.. everything will be rosy. So what happens after 10 sessions and you are no better, waste of money. I am sure many folks have beinfitted from this 'cookie cutter' recipie but it makes it sound like the financial gain is more important than helping folks back to health.
The modern form of MFR does not follow a set protocol of techniques...why... because we are all different. 2 people that present with whiplash can have totally different sets of restrictions, bearing in mind that fascia is 3d and completely comtionious. The 10 session appraoch applied by a few therapies addresses the whole body by a sytematic set of protocols and techniques that are used in aorder, intuition plays a very little part of this set of techniques. After this approach you should be pain free. What if intuition were involved and client participation played a big part, you work where they feel things changing and moving, pulling and stretching not where you protocol says you have to go next. Because the modern method of MFR works with the body/mind connection you are able to follow the restrictions as the patients presents them to you in unwinding. If that was to happen then you could get the patient pain free in far fewer session. The modern form of MFR is non invasive. We wait for the collagen in the fascia to release, not force it like Rolfing does, it is a totally different feeling, a far nicer experience and so amazing to feel your body unwind naturally and move and soften as your own tissue lets go. I teach people how to work with MFR so as they can feel what is going on... they have to be a part of the process... there is no grin and bear it allowed because that causes natural dissociation and that defeats the object of the purpose.
When you grin and bear it your body tenses up..... behind every thought there is a chemical and physical reaction. If you are in pain you tense up....if you sense something will be painful you tense up. When the body is tense it is very hard to feel where the true restrictuons are in any therapy. You must encourage the patient to relax and let go. You then apply the gemtle pressure of MFR, using a law of physics called the piezoelectric effect, a low load of pressure over a sustained period of time will create change in the ground substance of the fascisl component. As the ground substance changes back to a fluid state the tissue lets go of the restrictions and you feel your hands move into the next barrier... there is no force.. you are allowing the tissue to re-organise and release it's self and this change provides a measurable and functional tissue change. No pain.. all gain!!!
It's better to aim higher and provide a service where results happen instintaniously, people pay less as they are in treatment less, they feel the difference and give you far more client referrals.
Answers:
MFR is a fantastic therapy, and if you want to learn it I would recommend that you cover it in a longer rather than shorter course, as there is so much to learn. There are lots of short workshops on the subject, which I feel doesnt give you enough time to master the techniques. DVD's and videos are good, but only as a reference guide as part of a training course.
Answers:
hi ruth,
my impression of the rolfing 10 series is that it is not a modality that one engages for a specific compaint of pain or dysfunction, rather it comprises a comprehensive program of structural integration, that is the realignment of every and all parts of the body. hence the more structured (cookie cutter, as you put it) approach.
also the ten series was developed as a foundation upon which practitioners can then deviate based on the individual needs of the client, so that although clients have the option of doing the entire series, this is not necessarily always the case.
thirdly, the advantage of the ten series is the standardisation of approach across all rolfers meaning that you can visit a rolfer anywhere in the world and say, "i have completed up to step 4" and they will know exactly what has been does to you so far and be able to pick up your treatment program. this approach does not tie you to one practitioner.
lastly, the connection of rolfing with pain is a myth. if you read the literature on the rolf institute website and/or tom myers (member of the rolf institute since 1975) "anatomy trains" books, they talk specifally about the avoidance of causing pain in treatments.
just thought i should let you know my thoughts on these issues.
x
henry
Answers:
Hiya Henry... just got your PM too.
I totally agree with you on the aspect of it beinga structured approach where all the trained practitioners work the same way.
The main difference between the traditional soft tissue mobs, like Rolfing, Stuart taws stuff, Art Riggs Stuff, Lever work, KMI and even the'NEW' Active Release Therapy is that they do not allow enough time for the collagenous component of the fascia to completely reorganise. They also work at the site of pain opposed to feeling into the system for the restrictions. Hence as you dont connect with the system energetically and you end up forcing it. If you were taught how to feel the fascu restrictions then you could work where the cause is and not need to follow a cookine cutter recipie to cover all pissibilities.. what a waste of time 10 sessions would be if you could make a difference in 3 with MFR. I have been Rolfed many times when I lived in the US and it was painful compared Barnes MFR. One of my teachers at Massage School was an Advanced Rolfer and we were taught some of their techniques in Neruo class, I very rarely use them now as I get far better results with MFR. That doesn't mean to say Rolfing doesnt wowrk.. it does and I have a high respect for it, I have ever considered doing Tom's KMI but feel that I am better suited to the Barnes stuff because it works with the body/mind connection and it's fantastic to see folks unwind on the table and to be aprt of that.
John Barnes has trained over 50,000 therapists.. thats a hell of a lot more than Tom Myers.. so Barnes stuff is very popular because it works and you dont need to do 10 sessions to make it work. John Barnes and John Upledger used to work together and teach together. Cranial Sacral is MFR, but MFR is not simply Cranial work.
You try and Rolf subscapularis and tell me that doesnt hurt... I'd far rather that I got the release using MFR for my patients than cause them more pain.
Hey lets face it... there are so many types of bodywork around... they all have their pors and cons...all have their benifits and can create change for the patient in one way or another. The basisc fact remains that traditional soft tissue release is following the old paridigm. New research backs up that facts that collagen needs time to release.. to my knowlege very few therapies follow the research.
And I still maintain that old style soft tissue release hurts... you need to try Barnes MFR instead.
Answers:
Ruth, i bow to your greater exposure and experience to both streams of myofascial work. to be fair, (as i have stated in pm's to you) i have heard great things about the barnes method, by example, my myofascial release teacher during my remedial massage diploma taught the rolfing approach but gave equal weight to the barnes method. of course one is always going to be biased towards the modality that you prefer. however i just can't help reacting when one modality talks about being "better" than another one. so it's comforting to see more balance in your response and to hear you say that you respect rolfing.
x
henry
Answers:
totally agree with you Henry... everything works and yes you are right you will always be bias to what you prefer.
I tried everything when I had ME for 8 years, eventually I got better through my own learnings. When I ended working in the US and came across barnes MFR I knew that that would help me finally rid myself of the ME....I knew that ME happened to me because of my past and because of stress.... I have never ever seen any other soft tissue body work release old habit and bracing paterns the way JFB work does....... that to me meansa hell of a lot more than pushing into the soft tissue.
I am hopefully assisting at the JFB beginners seminars in Chicago in November and am sooo looking forward to it.. as the Americans say it will be awsome!!!!
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